Wednesday, January 02, 2008

Proposal: Poker Part 2

Reached Quorum 7-0. Enacted by Chivalrybean

Adminned at 03 Jan 2008 06:16:35 UTC

Part 1:

Add a new dynastic rule, entitled “Dealing and Play”, as follows:

A Hand of Poker commences when the Dealer posts a story post (which will be stickied) that declares that the Hand has commenced.  The Story Post will state the Hand Number (hands will be numbered consecutively starting with Hand #1), the Ante for that Hand, and any other pertinent information.

Each Seated Player shall obtain a new Deck of Cards from the BlogNomic Poker Deck Trading Post for use in that Hand, and shall make a comment of “HAND#X DICE52 DICE52” (where X is the hand number) (such comment is called the player’s “Hole Card Draw”.  If the results of both dice rolls in the Hole Card Draw are the same number, then the Seated Player shall make another Hole Card Draw comment to the GNDT, repeating as necessary until the results of both dice rolls are not identical to each other.  The Seated Player shall then post a comment to the Story Post for the Hand that states the numeric results of the Hole Card Draw dice rolls and the “Cards printed by:” checksum for that Seated Player’s Deck of Cards (example: Spikebrennan cards 14, 26, Cards printed by: J. J. Grimes Printing, Elko”.  The Seated Player’s “Hole Cards” for that Hand, then, shall be the cards corresponding to the number of the Deck of Cards (for example, if Spikebrennan’s Hole Card Draw were to be 1,2 and the first and second numbered cards in Spikebrennan’s Deck of Cards are 7 of hearts, 2 of spades, then Spikebrennan’s Hole Cards are 7 of hearts, 2 of spades).

All Seated Players then Ante, which occurs only once per Hand.  This is accomplished by deducting, in the GNDT an amount from each Seated Player’s Money equal to the Ante and adding that amount to the Pot.  (The Dealer may do this at the commencement of the Hand, or any Player may do so).

The first Round of the Hand occurs before any Community Cards are dealt.  The First Round proceeds as follows.
Play begins with the Seated Player listed in the GNDT after the Button Player.  That Player may Raise or Fold.  To Raise, the Player deducts an amount from his Money (but not more than all of his Money) (provided that if the Player in question is not the first to act in that Round, then the amount of the Raise must be more than the amount needed to Call) and adds that amount to the Pot, and posts a comment to the GNDT in substantially the form “HANDx ROUNDy raise Z” where x is the Hand Number, y is the Round number, and Z is the amount of the Raise.  To Fold, the Player posts a comment to the GNDT in substantially the form “HANDx ROUNDy folds”, and thereafter that Player ceases to participate in that Hand.  Upon completing the action, the Player changes his own “Turn” entry in the GNDT to “-” and changes the “Turn” entry to the next succeeding Seated Player who has not yet folded to “X” to indicate that it is now that Seated Player’s turn to act.  The next Seated Player then acts.  That Player may Call, Raise or Fold.  To Call, the Player deducts from his Money (but not more than all of his Money) an amount equal to the last Raise by any Seated Player in that Round, less any amount already added to the Pot by that Player in that Round.  The Round then proceeds until the last act by each Seated Player in that Round was either a Call or a Fold.  No Player may Check before the Flop.

The Dealer then posts a comment to the story post for that Hand that identifies the first three Community Cards, which cards are collectively known as the Flop.

The second round of play for the Hand then commences.

Play begins with the Seated Player listed in the GNDT after the Button Player.  That Player may Check, Raise or Fold.  To Check, the Player makes a GNDT comment of “HANDx ROUNDy check” and does not deduct any amount from his Money or add any money to the Pot.  However, no player may Check if any player has Raised during that Round.  The Round then proceeds until the last act by each Seated Player in that Round was either a Check, a Call or a Fold.

The Dealer then posts a comment to the story post for that Hand that identifies the fourth Community Card, which card known as the Turn.

The third round of play for the Hand then commences.  Play proceeds as per the second round of play.

The Dealer then posts a comment to the story post for that Hand that identifies the fifth Community Card, which card known as the River.

The fourth and final round of play for the Hand then commences.  Play procees as per the second round of play until either (i) there is only one Seated Player who has not Folded (in which case that Seated Player wins the Hand), or (ii) all Seated Players who have not Folded have Checked or Called, in which case each such Seated Player must post a comment to the GNDT that reveals his Hole Cards for that Hand.  The winner of the Hand is then determined per the Poker Hands Page by comparing the best five-card Poker Hand held by any such Seated Player (including one or both of such Seated Player’s Hole Cards and the balance of the cards in the five-card hand from the Community Cards.  No Community Card may be used by a particular Seated Player during a particular Hand more than once.

Once the winner of the Hand is determined, the winner adds to his Money an amount equal to the amount of Money in the Pot, and sets the Pot at zero.  If two or more players who have not Folded have equally ranked hands per the Poker Hands Page, then they split the Pot equally with all fractions rounded down.

Part 2:
Add a new Dynastic rule entitled “Turn Indicator” as follows:

There is a GNDT statistic column entitled “Turn”.  Each Player’s entry in the “Turn” column shall be either “-”, “o” or “x”.  Any Player who is not a Seated Player, or who has Folded during a Hand in progress has an entry of “o”.  The one Seated Player whose turn it is to play shall have an entry of “x” and all other Seated Players shall have an entry of “-”.

Comments

Yoda:

01-02-2008 18:41:06 UTC

I have a few questions/concerns:

1) The current wording means that each player will have to get a new deck before each hand.
2) Why reroll is both hole card rolls are the same?  We said in a previous discussion that it would not matter if more than one Player has the same card.  Why not say the same for each Player’s hand?
3) The current wording is ambiguous as to whether the amount of the ante is added to the pot or the amount collected from all the antes is added to the pot.  Clearly, you meant the latter, but it might be safe to explicitly state it somewhere.
4) What about blinds?
5) You specify what “x” and “y” are but not “Z” (I think you meant “Z” instead of “Y”).
6) What is the difference between “in substantially the form” and “in the form”?
7) Shouldn’t the first condition stated in the next-to-last paragraph apply to each round instead of just the last one?
8) You do not handle what happens when a Player does not want to fold but does not have enough money to call.
9) How long should we wait for a Player to take his turn?  What should we do once that time passes or if he goes idle in the middle of a hand?

These are mostly just typos, but I am going to vote imperial  for now.

spikebrennan:

01-02-2008 19:04:16 UTC

1) Yes.  That’s so if Player X gets Hole Cards 1 and 2 on the first hand, and then draws Card 1 again on the second hand, people won’t know what it was if it got exposed during the course of the first hand.
2) So you dont have Ace of Spades, Another Ace of Spades as your hole cards.
3) Good point.  If it causes problems, we can fix.
4) I thought about this, but (a) I thought that it’d be too complicated to take into account new players joining, and (b) hypothetical hands of non-HoldEm poker variants.
5) Huh?
6) Both should say “in substantially the form”.  To avoid a non-substantive error rendering an action invalid and screwing everything up.
7) Good point.  Want to make a proposal that patches this?
8) Another good point.  Want to make a proposal that addresses split pots?
9) Another good point.  I thought about this and forgot to do anything about it.  If it becomes a problem, we can have a proposal such that, say, if 48 hours goes by then the player in question folds (and, perhaps, pays a penalty into the Pot as well).

aaronwinborn:

01-02-2008 19:07:38 UTC

imperial concern 9 is of largest concern to me. with a reasonable average wait of 24 hours per player, a single hand could take a month-and-a-half. even if most people check at least twice a day, we’re still looking at 2-3 weeks for a hand.

limits are difficult, too. a case could be made for a 48 hour limit, as with voting. however, a hand could drag on for 2-3 months with that. otoh, even with a 24 hour limit, that would make things dicey for some people (like for me on the weekends). and even though a 6 hour limit would speed things up considerably (so a hand would only take a maximum of 12 days), i wouldn’t want to drag myself out of bed at 3am to meet my deadline, only to find the past three players took their turns in quick sequence, leaving me in the lurch by 15 minutes.

sorry i don’t have any answers here. i guess it’s better to pass on the question of time limits for now, and address it later.

spikebrennan:

01-02-2008 19:10:52 UTC

Oh, I know hands will be slow.  But this is Nomic.  We should have plenty of things to do in the meantime while the hand is going on.

Yoda:

01-02-2008 19:17:02 UTC

5) I am pointing out a typo in the paragraph that explains the first round.
6) What does the word “substantially” add to the meaning?

spikebrennan:

01-02-2008 19:38:41 UTC

5.  Okay, the admin who enacts this (if it passes) can fix the typo.
6.  It means that if someone’s GNDT comment is immaterially different “Hand 1” or “HAND 1” or “HNAD1” or whatever, then nobody can later claim that the act was invalid and doesn’t count.

Yoda:

01-02-2008 19:41:36 UTC

I proposed the first fix, but I will leave someone else to figure out how to do split pots.

Chivalrybean:

01-02-2008 20:21:00 UTC

for

I think it’ll work, and we can iron out the problems before th first hand is dealt.

Darknight:

01-02-2008 21:16:13 UTC

for i haves the money now i wants to use it lol

Amnistar:

01-02-2008 22:35:28 UTC

for

Also, preventing same cards as hole cards means people won’t know you have a pair.

Rodlen:

01-03-2008 04:35:08 UTC

for

Kevan:

01-03-2008 13:47:52 UTC

for