Saturday, November 22, 2008

Proposal: Cut Short

Timed out, passed 7-3—Commander Rodlen

Adminned at 24 Nov 2008 10:43:59 UTC

It would be a shame if we didn’t get to experience the fate of Jason Smith. To this end I propose to add the rule “The End” to the ruleset with the following text:

No Character may declare victory before 25th December 2008.
If a character does declare victory before this date then the declaration fails automatically regardless of how the voting goes.

Comments

Gnauga:

11-22-2008 17:40:49 UTC

for

Yoda:

11-22-2008 18:50:58 UTC

for

Rodlen:

11-22-2008 19:11:40 UTC

for

Purplebeard:

11-22-2008 21:16:10 UTC

for

Darknight:

11-22-2008 22:02:07 UTC

for It’d be like reading a book and learning the ending was torn out

arthexis:

11-23-2008 01:25:55 UTC

against

arthexis:

11-23-2008 01:30:14 UTC

This feels waaay too dangerous to be allowed.

ovangle:

11-23-2008 02:10:16 UTC

Agreed, against. There is the possibility of being locked into a paradoxical ruleset.

Darknight:

11-23-2008 02:32:51 UTC

How so ovangle?

Darknight:

11-23-2008 02:34:09 UTC

Plus there isn’t a victory condition yet anyway. Worse comes to it, this can always get repeled later

ovangle:

11-23-2008 03:13:23 UTC

If that person would Declare victory by stating “This declaration of victory will pass if and only if it fails”, then it fails because it was posted before the 25th (without a vote) and it passes because it fails.

ovangle:

11-23-2008 03:18:23 UTC

Sure you can veto it, but since it fails regardless of voting (including imperial vetos), it passes.

ovangle:

11-23-2008 03:21:58 UTC

Or even better, “Victory shall be mine if this declaration of victory fails.”

Darknight:

11-23-2008 03:33:08 UTC

If something fails it wouldn’t work. No rule ever triggers itself if it fails.

Darknight:

11-23-2008 03:34:53 UTC

I have never seen a nomic allow something in a proposal to enact if said proposal, or DoV for that matter, fails.

Darknight:

11-23-2008 03:35:37 UTC

There for theres no chance of a paradox being formed by this rule

ovangle:

11-23-2008 03:53:18 UTC

Would you like to point out exactly where, in your ruleset, that is prohibited?

The only thing that stops me doing it currently is the following:

“The Declaration of Victory may be resolved after 24 hours, or after 12 hours if the Narrator has voted on it. Upon resolution, if a Quorum of Characters have voted on the DoV and more than half of those votes were in favour, then the DoV passes - otherwise the DoV fails, and if no other DoVs are still pending, the Hiatus ends.”

i.e. it can only pass before it fails. If it can fail before it passes, then the paradox is allowed.

Darknight:

11-23-2008 04:02:59 UTC

In order for any part of a proposal to work it has to be enacted, i.e have enough for votes. If a proposal fails, even if something in it says it would trigger, it does not. I had a proposal afew dynasties ago with a fail trigger that was ruled to not have been able to work. Plus a CfJ would render any attempts moot.

ovangle:

11-23-2008 04:15:08 UTC

I’ll try again.

My declaration of victory is:
“This is the declaration of victory for ovangle, which states that ovangle has achieved victory and this declaration has passed if and only if this declaration fails.”

Now, usually, in order for the proposal to pass, this would require a quorom of characters to vote in favour of said proposal AND for the proposal to fail, which is an impossibility, so the declaration cannot pass.

If this proposal were passed, then all that would be required would be for it to fail, since it fails regardless of voting.

ovangle:

11-23-2008 04:20:30 UTC

Nowhere does it say that a declaration of victory is a type of proposal and hence subject, or that victory needs to be triggered by the passing of a declaration of victory.

Darknight:

11-23-2008 04:22:35 UTC

The DoV would fail but you would not win because, as I said, only if it was enacted would it have any effect. A failed DoV nulls the wording so even though it says you’d win if it fails it would not come into effect

ovangle:

11-23-2008 04:25:47 UTC

Look at the ruleset. The only things that require enactment are proposals, and nowhere does it say that failing a proposal/DoV nulls the wording.

Darknight:

11-23-2008 04:41:30 UTC

There. proposed a fix for your paradox lol. i still vote for for this one

Bucky:

11-23-2008 06:31:43 UTC

How about “The Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered in manners specified by the Ruleset”. 

A failed proposal or DoV is not permitted to modify the Gamestate.  This means it cannot cause itself to be passed, or for a Character to achieve victory, or do anything else useful except where a Rule specifically deals with Failed Proposals.

Bucky:

11-23-2008 06:32:45 UTC

(Oh, and imperial .)

Rodlen:

11-23-2008 06:35:20 UTC

Very much on topic, I shall point out http://blognomic.com/archive/bwa_ha_hah/

Hello Sailor:

11-24-2008 02:16:45 UTC

Ovangle, you seem to be operating under the (incorrect) assumption that the mere act of putting the sentence “Victory shall be mine if this declaration of victory fails.” somehow makes that sentence true.

It’s perfectly consistent for such a declaration of victory to fail, and yet for victory to not be awarded its poster.

Yoda:

11-24-2008 04:28:37 UTC

And that is because the text of a DoV has no effect on gamestate.  It is merely an explanation of why you believe you have achieved victory.