Thursday, December 08, 2022

Proposal: [Appendix] The Passage of Time Cares Not for Your Scams

Withdrawn and therefore failed -SingularByte

Adminned at 10 Dec 2022 05:27:38 UTC

In the appendix, add a new bullet point to the subsection called Time under the section called Clarifications which reads:


Actions cannot be taken before they are defined unless the ruleset specifies otherwise. All things done by a player before a given action is added to the ruleset may not count as that action, with actions of the same name but proposed in different dynasties at different times being considered as different actions. Similarly, if a clause in the rules is triggered when an event occurs but that event had not occured before the clause was added to the ruleset, that clause is not triggered by the past event.

Comments

Kevan: he/him

08-12-2022 18:52:42 UTC

I assume we’d also want to say that past actions “taken” in this way during the current dynasty are invalidated, otherwise this is just implicitly endorsing them as legal.

I still can’t really picture a situation that isn’t already adequately covered by “The Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered in manners specified by the Ruleset.” and “For gamestate which is tracked in a specific place (such as a wiki page), any alteration of that gamestate as a result of an Explorer’s action is (and can only be) applied by editing that data in that place.”, though.

JonathanDark: he/him

08-12-2022 19:00:56 UTC

I feel like the fact that we’re debating this is a good indicator that the existing wording isn’t sufficient, for clarity purposes if for nothing else.

I understand not liking redundant text, but if it helps better inform everyone what the expected behavior is for specific scenarios, I don’t see the harm. This section of the ruleset is called “Clarifications” for that reason, in my opinion.

JonathanDark: he/him

08-12-2022 19:03:10 UTC

Slight wording correction, unless I’m mistaken by your intent:

” but that event had not occured before the clause was added to the ruleset, “

shouldn’t that be:

” but that event had occured before the clause was added to the ruleset, “

to cover the scenario of the “past event, future clause”?

Bucky:

08-12-2022 19:40:22 UTC

“Actions cannot be taken before they are defined unless the ruleset specifies otherwise” appears to accidentally make literally all information gamestate, due to the possibility that a future rule might define an action to make the same change.

Brendan: he/him

08-12-2022 21:21:45 UTC

I’m with Kevan, I think; I see JonathanDark’s point about the clarifications section, but adding redundant clarification opens up precedent for saying “well we clarified about the potential-future-actions thing, but we didn’t clarify about my retroactive-value-change scam, so…”

Bucky:

09-12-2022 02:41:08 UTC

Very against .

quirck: he/him

09-12-2022 09:36:52 UTC

against

Kevan: he/him

09-12-2022 09:46:58 UTC

against Per earlier comments, especially the implication that we can all currently take some actions before they’re defined, so long as we do so before this proposal enacts.

And I’m not sure this address what may be the actual question that was raised here (according to the other appendix proposal and Josh’s Discord comments about the “timeliness” of performing actions which do not yet exist) - whether someone announcing “I will [perform action] as soon as it becomes legal to do so” means that the action happens automatically and legally later on.

Josh: Observer he/they

09-12-2022 09:54:14 UTC

I think most of the situations that this covers will be dealt with by cfj / DoV voting, and the ruleset doesn’t strictly need to cover the edge cases.  against

Brendan: he/him

09-12-2022 15:25:51 UTC

against

Habanero:

09-12-2022 16:12:03 UTC

against Seems pretty unnecessary to me.

Snisbo: she/they

09-12-2022 18:18:00 UTC

against Withdrawn