Monday, February 03, 2025

Proposal: Cash Me Outside

Withdrawn. Failed by JonathanDark.

Adminned at 04 Feb 2025 15:18:07 UTC

In the rule “Bounties (Heists) {M}”, replace the text “If a Mastermind credit” with “If a Mastermind believes”.

In the rule “Teams and Targets {I}”, add a subtitle name “Apprentices {I}” with the following text:

Each non-Mastermind may have the Apprentice Characteristic. Participants who have the Apprentice Characteristic are known as Apprentice Participants.

If there is at least a quorum of non-Mastermind Participants whose Triumphs are greater than all of the non-Mastermind Participants’ Triumphs outside that group, then that group of Participants are known as the Professionals. The Professional Level is the lowest value of Triumphs among the Professionals’ Triumphs if the Professionals exist, otherwise the Professional Level is 0.

If a Participant has fewer Triumphs than the Professional Level, that Participant may add the Apprentice Characteristic to themselves.

If a Participant’s Triumphs are at least equal to the Professional Level, that Participant may not have the Apprentice Characteristic.

In the rule “Retirement {I}” replace the text of that rule with the following:

Retirement Threshold and Early Penalty are derived numbers based on the following:
* If a Participant is an Apprentice Participant, their Retirement Threshold is equal to the largest value of Triumphs among all Participants, and their Early Penalty is 0.
* If a Participant is not an Apprentice Participant, their Retirement Threshold is equal to that Participant’s Triumphs, and their Early Penalty is 1.

As a Heist Action, a Participant may attempt to Retire by rolling DICE20 (in addition to the normal roll required to complete a Heist Action). If that Heist Action is successful and the result of that DICE20 roll is less than that Participant’s Retirement Threshold, then that Participant has successfully Retired and may award themselves the Retired Characteristic; if that Heist Action is not successful, or the result of that DICE20 roll is greater than or equal to the Participant’s Retirement Threshold, then that Participant has failed to Retire and subtracts their Early Penalty from their Triumphs, to a minimum of 0 Triumphs.

In the same rule, add a subrule named “Cashing Out {I}” with the following text:

Apprentice Threshold is twice the sum of the Triumphs of all Apprentice Participants.

Cash Out is an atomic action with the following steps, where the Participant performing the action is considered the Attemptee in that instance:
* Roll a DICEX, where X is one of the following:
** If that Attemptee is an Apprentice Participant, X is the Apprentice Threshold or 1, whichever is greater.
** If that Attemptee is not an Apprentice Participant, X is three times that Attemptee’s Triumphs minus the sum of the Triumphs of all other Participants who have the Retired Characteristic, to a minimum of 1.
* If the result of that roll from the preceding step is less than or equal to the Triumphs of that Attemptee, that Attemptee achieves victory.

A Participant who has the Retired Characteristic may perform Cash Out if they haven’t done so since the last time any Participant gained the Retired Characteristic or it’s been 96 hours since they last performed Cash Out.

This allows Participants who have lower Triumphs than a quorum to be more likely to successfully Retire than the original Retire requirements, the success being greater as the Triumphs leader increases their Triumphs, and failure isn’t as punishing for them. They also have a reasonable chance at winning after being Retired. Participants in the quorum of higher Triumphs, especially ones who have significant leads, have a lower chance of winning if they try to Cash Out right away, and have a better chance of winning as more Participants become Retired, especially if the other Retired have higher Triumphs rather than lower Triumphs. The risk is a chance that the recently Retired might achieve victory first.

Comments

Habanero:

04-02-2025 04:56:09 UTC

This seems very unbalanced towards the first to act, and gives them around a 29% chance to win instantly after enacting the proposal if they would be an Apprentice (two 7/20 retirement attempts, then if either succeeds a 1/2 chance to successfully cash out). against

JonathanDark: he/him

04-02-2025 05:00:14 UTC

Do you think Cash Out should also be a Heist Action? If the only flaw is a fast-acting Apprentice, then I’m willing to entertain alternate possibilities.

My biggest worry was the overall balance, so if I managed that appropriately, then I’m reasonably happy and would be willing to propose a modified version.

Habanero:

04-02-2025 05:08:32 UTC

I’m not against the concept here. I do think the first-mover advantage should be completely nonexistent if I’m to vote for something like this (as it stands now, you’re encouraged to become an Apprentice early, since the more Apprentices there are the higher the Apprentice Threshold gets and the less likely you are to cash out). Also, I think being able to win instantly with a couple very good dice rolls and nothing else isn’t a good thing, so I’d like to see some final task which must be accomplished to win even if you do cash out

Habanero:

04-02-2025 05:19:00 UTC

A few other things:
- If two people retire in quick succession, then I might miss an opportunity to attempt cashing out. Making it a Heist Action would probably help with this, but I think it might be better to just get rid of the ‘any Participant got the Retired Characteristic’ part to discourage constantly checking in on the game to see if someone has retired

- The Professionals conditions are ambiguous, it’s unclear whether ‘all of the non-Mastermind Participants’ Triumphs’ refers to each of those Participants’ Triumphs individually or the sum of those Participants’ Triumphs. You probably meant the first one but on my first read through I interpreted it as the second

JonathanDark: he/him

04-02-2025 05:24:22 UTC

I’d like to see some final task which must be accomplished to win even if you do cash out

Hm, like a final Heist Action, something appropriate? “The Last Job”

SingularByte: he/him

04-02-2025 08:16:47 UTC

The wording on Professionals seems a little iffy. It seems like it’s giving you permission to define professionals as any size greater than quorum and less than the player count, but then goes on to use the professional level as if it had only one set value at any given moment. You’d probably have to define the professionals as the smallest group that meets its conditions to be usable like that.

JonathanDark: he/him

04-02-2025 14:38:12 UTC

Withdrawn since it seems like SB’s proposal is close enough to have satisfied the bounty.

against