Saturday, December 13, 2008

Call for Judgment: Changing relationship after posting plot seed

timed out, final vote 2-5—Yoda
not 100% sure on the vote count but I know it did fail

Adminned at 17 Dec 2008 14:09:57 UTC

I posted a plot seed. About 24 hours later I changed my relationship. Rodlen has reversed this via the GNDT. While I think it’s up to the Character objecting to a debatable rule interpretation to post the COJ, I’m going to do it to avoid having a back-and-forth in the GNDT that will inevitably end up as a COJ.

The germane rules state:

2.4 Relationship

There exists a GNDT-tracked variable for each character entitled relationship, which can be negative. New Characters start with a relationship of 0. The narrator always has a relationship of 0.

Whenever a Character other than the Narrator Seeds the Plot, that character may spend 50 Bucks to increase or decrease their Relationship by 1.

I am a Character. I seeded the plot. I “may” which, per Ruleset language usage, means I am “permitted to.” The way I see it, this means I have the ability to change my relationship until I seed the plot again (at which point I’ll have another chance to change my relationship by one unit, but not by two). I don’t see anything in the rule that mandates some sort of immediate action.

 

posted by eljefe at 13 Dec 2008 21:51:01 UTC Comments (25)

Comments

Klisz:

13-12-2008 22:07:19 UTC

for

Rodlen:

13-12-2008 22:08:43 UTC

The key word is “whenever”. against

Rodlen:

13-12-2008 22:09:27 UTC

Whenever, in my opinion, means it has to be done WHEN the plot seed is posted.

Klisz:

13-12-2008 22:10:41 UTC

Yes, but it says nothing about it having to happen right away.

Klisz:

13-12-2008 22:11:10 UTC

Oops. I was still writing that when you posted.

Klisz:

13-12-2008 22:11:50 UTC

You have a point, so against

Bucky:

13-12-2008 22:15:01 UTC

against as per Rodlen.  As worded, you need to do the relationship change and the plot seed at the same time.

A small time difference is acceptable because of the time it takes for you to switch from the wiki to the GNDT, but 24 hours is unacceptable.

eljefe:

13-12-2008 22:16:29 UTC

The “whenever” refers to activating my ability to change my relationship.

Whenever I seed the plot I am now able to spend bucks to change my relationship.

If “whenever” means a time period, it should be defined. Instead, your interpretation requires us to infer a time period. Is it an hour? Three hours? Five minutes?

Like I said, the common sense and reasonable reading is that you post a plot seed and then you “may” (are permitted to) change your relationship. There’s no reasonable basis on which to assume you have a time limit.

Rodlen:

13-12-2008 22:18:17 UTC

Whenever refers to the time the plot seed is made, in this case.

Yoda:

13-12-2008 23:52:30 UTC

for I agree with eljefe, but sadly this won’t do anything if it does pass.

Rodlen:

14-12-2008 00:28:41 UTC

“Whenever a Character other than the Narrator Seeds the Plot” is blatant proof that the plot seed is the time you have to change your relationship.

arthexis: he/him

14-12-2008 04:04:25 UTC

for Disagree with Rodlen: If that was what was intender it should have read, “At the time a Character other than…” etc.

Yoda:

14-12-2008 05:34:35 UTC

And eljefe, your for vote is not automatic like in proposals.

Klisz:

14-12-2008 16:28:08 UTC

CoV for

eljefe:

14-12-2008 20:20:07 UTC

Why wouldn’t it do anything?

for

Yoda:

14-12-2008 20:35:05 UTC

Because it doesn’t say, “If this CfJ passes,” perform some action.

eljefe:

14-12-2008 20:45:03 UTC

Presumably, if this passes Rodlen won’t be able to unilaterally reverse my GNDT actions.

I’m going to reduce my bucks by 50 and lower my relationship by 1 if this vote persists.

Hello Sailor:

15-12-2008 16:00:28 UTC

Regarding Calls for Judgment:  “After this time, if more than half of the cast votes are in favour, the Gamestate and Ruleset shall be amended as was specified.”

Um, you didn’t specify any changes that ought to be made should this get enough votes.

against to avoid weirdness.

Klisz:

15-12-2008 18:22:29 UTC

CoV again against  since HS has a point.

(What does CoV stand for, anyway? I’m guessing “change of vote”, but I’m not certain.)

Rodlen:

15-12-2008 20:31:24 UTC

Yep, change of vote.

Klisz:

17-12-2008 02:27:40 UTC

You know, December 18 is going to come before this CfJ is resolved. <sarcasm>Maybe Yoda should veto it.</sarcasm>

Yoda:

17-12-2008 05:42:39 UTC

I can’t veto a CfJ.

Amnistar: he/him

17-12-2008 12:25:30 UTC

As the CfJ does nothing it really doesn’t matter, but whenever doesn’t specify “at the same time” it specifies “action that grants permission.”

“Whenever a Character other than the Narrator Seeds the Plot”

when this happens:

“that character may spend 50 Bucks to increase or decrease their Relationship by 1.”

character may do this.

Not within a certain period and, interestingly enough, not only once.  It would be completely legal for any character that has posted any plotseeds to bood their relationship by as much as they want by spending oodles of Bucks.
[edit]

Klisz:

17-12-2008 17:15:12 UTC

@Yoda: That was why I put sarcasm tags.

arthexis: he/him

17-12-2008 20:38:49 UTC

against CoV. I agree with Aminstar completely, but seeing that this CfJ does nothing, I rather have it failed so we can clear it off the queue.