I would argue that in me shoving you into a situation caused by a trap, you would count as a Victim, as no-where in rule 2.8 is ‘Victim’ clearly defined. Thus we fall back on the definition:

“A person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.”

Under rule 8.1.1, the effect of the trap still applies (and continues to apply since the trap has not been removed). Therefore, since there are no permanent entities in the column, then all entities in that column should be removed (including the target and Kevan) and I should get a frag for his death.

Lasers are not entities; all that Rule 8.1.1 did is edit the squares to be IconLaser.png. This does not make them non-empty.

Here’s your clear definition of Victim in Rule 2.8: “Whenever a Gladiator (known as the “Victim”) would move into an Arena Square containing a Target…” - so traps only have an effect when someone moves into an Arena Square containing a Target. You can’t say that “I would say that someone in situation X could be called a ‘Victim’, therefore they are affected by whichever trap seems most relevant, because traps target Victims”, because “a keyword defined by a rule supersedes the normal English usage of the word”.

The only way someone can trigger a trap is by moving into the Arena Square of a Target. You pushed me into an empty square that happened (due to a bug in the definition of Laser Beams) to have no entities in it. It has the icon of a Laser Beam, but there is no ruleset effect for entering a square that has the icon of a Laser Beam.

(I’m afraid I can’t work out what “Rule 8.1.1” is a typo for.)

Sorry - 2.8.1 is what I was referring to. Coppro’s argument that lasers are not entities makes no difference to my argument.

Kevan: My point was that the ‘definition’ in Rule 2.8 is not a definition at all,  as no-where does it say that a victim *must* be moved to a target, only that they are “known as” that. Therefore “a keyword defined by a rule supersedes the normal English usage of the word” doesn’t apply. In the charge rule a different definition of victim is used, so it only makes sense to use the normal English usage of the word.

Since the trap itself has not been removed from the arena indicates that the effects of the trap still apply.

There is nothing in the ruleset to suggest that a square containing a Laser has any effect on a Gladiator who enters that square.

BlogNomic is all about the rules, rather than what we would expect by common sense to happen in a situation. “It’s a laser, and the laser kills people when it comes into play, so you’d expect it to kill people who stumbled into it later” would be perfectly good common sense if we were telling a story, but the game rule is just “when the trap is triggered, a person standing here is killed, and they are replaced by this picture” - there is no additional clause of “this picture kills people who arrive later”, there is nothing to indicate that “the effects of the trap still apply”.

Its actually analogous to an acid pit (partly, in a way) - My point is that, in the same way that an acid pit is a trap which has effects after someone triggers it (ie. when someone else is pushed in) this laser continues (as the target remaining in the arena indicates) to have an effect after the initial trigger.

I’m not attempting to appeal to common sense (heaven forbid!). You may all disagree with my interpretation, which is fine, but it is still how I read the rules.

The Green ^ Trap has the following clear chain of effects, if it’s created and another player is then pushed into it: “An Acid Pool is created in the square containing the Victim.” → “If an Acid Pool would be created in a Square containing a Gladiator, the Gladiator dies before the Pool is created.” → “If a Gladiator moves or is moved to a Square containing an Acid Pool, he dies.”

Whereas the Vertical Particle Beam has: “All Entities in that column are removed (causing any Gladiators removed in this way to Die) and all squares in that column are edited to contain a Laser Beam.” and… nothing else. There is nothing that defines what happens if a Gladiator is moved to a Square containing a Laser Beam. Therefore nothing happens.

Acid Pools have clearly defined rules for what happens if you are pushed into them. Laser Beams do not.

Okay. Conceded. I am wondering whether the actual trap should have been removed in the first place though. That’s what caused me the confusion.