Thursday, December 19, 2013

Proposal: Government Reshuffle

Timed out. Passes 5-2—Clucky

Adminned at 21 Dec 2013 10:47:27 UTC

In the rule entitled “Civil War”, remove “and Interim Despot” from the sentence ‘The Despot and Interim Despot are not Oligarchs for the purposes of any dynastic rule’.

In the same rule, change “since they were last an Oligarch” to “since they most recently became Interim Despot” in the sentence ‘An Interim Despot who has been Interim Despot for three consecutive days since they were last an Oligarch then becomes the Despot’. Add “They then lose all gamestate and GNDT values except Power.”

In the same rule, in the sentence ‘The new Interim Despot may then convert any amount of their Credibility to Power at a rate of 10 Power per Credibility spent’, change the number 10 to the number 5 and add the word “once” after the word “then”.


Clucky: HE/HIM

12-19-2013 18:58:04 UTC

This means the interim despot doesn’t actually get any protection meaning they could easily start out disposed before they even rise to power which I’m not sure I like…


12-19-2013 19:04:40 UTC

against The Interim Despot needs to retain Credibility, not just Power. And I do prefer the 10:1 ratio to 5:1, although it is a bit much. 1:7, maybe?


12-19-2013 19:05:11 UTC

7:1, I mean.


12-19-2013 19:10:26 UTC

Raichu, the Interim Despot doesn’t lose any values. The full Despot does, but the full Despot shouldn’t have Credibility - or at least, never has to date.

The 5:1 Cred to Power ratio is consistent with the rest of the ruleset but with Credibility values as they currently are the Interim Despot is too unassailable.

Clucky, this doesn’t remove the “Interim Despots may not be Deposed” clause.


12-19-2013 19:19:27 UTC

Oh, sorry, I put that into the wrong spot. So, for, I guess, though I still prefer my fix.

Clucky: HE/HIM

12-19-2013 19:27:17 UTC


though this still doesn’t solve the “does my power start at 0, 1000 or 1520”.

tempted to say 1000 just as a compromise


12-19-2013 19:29:52 UTC

In your case it would be your existing Oligarch value, but you would then have the unlimited ability to once convert Cred to Power at a 5:1 ratio.

Clucky: HE/HIM

12-19-2013 19:34:30 UTC

well, that depends on if this gets passed before or after I become full despot.

Is my existing Oligarch value 0 or 1520? If I were to idle and rejoin five days later it would certainly get reset to 1520 (as that was the last legal value it held) but I’m not really sure what it would get set to.


12-19-2013 19:48:18 UTC

Oh, in your weird limbo situation? I’d say that you end up with zeroes but that’s pretty untested. I suspect that’s a question that’s going to CfJ no matter what.

Clucky: HE/HIM

12-19-2013 19:53:33 UTC

Or I can set it to anything, be the one to enact this proposal and start with 9 million power, right? =D


12-19-2013 20:00:28 UTC



12-19-2013 20:06:09 UTC

No, as the GNDT is regulated by the ruleset and as such can only be edited as permitted by the ruleset. You could do that if you could make a cogent argument for your gamestate power being 9 million…


12-19-2013 20:33:04 UTC


Clucky: HE/HIM

12-19-2013 20:50:01 UTC

so whats the arugment for it resetting to zero then?


12-19-2013 20:57:44 UTC

The ruleset allows players to edit the GNDT to ensure that it reflects gamestate, and the current gamestate is that you have no entry for those values. See my comment to the last thread for chapter and verse.


12-19-2013 21:00:54 UTC

Oh, you mean after? I guess it would be that you’re moving from having no value in those fields to having a value, but it’s not defined what that value should be. As it’s effectively a new instance of those fields it didn’t make sense for it to be the old values, so it’s either going to be initial (1000) or zero. I could be persuaded either way on that one.


12-19-2013 21:07:48 UTC

I really couldn’t see how it’d be zero; if it resets to anything, it would be last legal value or the default.


12-19-2013 21:25:12 UTC

It definitely won’t be the last legal value, per my comment above.

The problem with the default is that the rule says that the Despot “starts the game” with 1000 and that an Oligarch “becomes the Despot”, suggesting that the Despot is a continuous role and as such that it has a continuity that supersedes the identity of whoever is occupying that role. As such, the Despot has already “started the game” with 1000 Power; it’s not a default in that sense of the word.

So if it’s not the last legal value and it’s not the game start value, what is it? The glossary has this:

If a game variable has no defined starting value for new Oligarchs, or for existing Oligarchs upon the variable’s creation, then that starting value is zero (for numerical variables) or blank (for a text string or list).

- and of course the Despot is only not an Oligarch for *dynastic* rules so it holds up in this instance. Thus, zero.


12-19-2013 21:27:51 UTC

Ah, I see.

Clucky: HE/HIM

12-19-2013 22:48:15 UTC

But I am not a new oligarch, and isn’t upon the variables creation.

So applies to the situation about much as “When an Oligarch is unidled, if they went Idle in the same dynasty, their personal gamestate retains the last legally endowed values it had” does.

I think its perfectly reasonable to claim that the above statement sets the precedent that if a value ever goes from the state of defined -> undefined -> defined during the course of a dynasty, it value once redefined is the “last legally endowed value it had”


12-20-2013 00:19:06 UTC



12-20-2013 00:36:23 UTC

for I tend to agree with Clucky’s interpretation, but I wouldn’t be opposed to setting it to 1000.