Tuesday, January 12, 2010

Declaration of Victory: I have it in the bag

Times out, fails 9-4 -Darth

Adminned at 13 Jan 2010 07:51:43 UTC

I declare victory, based on the following analysis:

1. I possess the Bag of London
2. By necessary implication, I possess all objects, including Relics, that are in the Bag of London.
3. Per the Universe page, London, Ontario is in the Bag of London.
4. By operation of AIS’s wish, Funafuti’s location is identical to the location of London, Ontario.
5. By necessary implication, Funafuti (and all Relics sharing a location at Funafuti) are in the Bag of London
6. Therefore, I possess all Relics, including all four amulets that enable me to declare Victory.

Comments

Darknight:

01-12-2010 23:04:16 UTC

against Relics were not ever but into the bag spike. Nor did I grant the speed wish, as u yourself said that if ya first wish wasn’t granted then the second didn’t count as a wish. And new location, new 24hr count down.

Klisz:

01-12-2010 23:05:00 UTC

against  per DK

Darknight:

01-12-2010 23:05:26 UTC

The only thing that should have been in the bag when I made it was London Ontario, nothing more.

spikebrennan:

01-12-2010 23:08:20 UTC

The ruleset makes it absolutely clear that if A contains B and B contains C, then A contains C.  Therefore everything in the Universe is in the bag, which I possess.

Darknight:

01-12-2010 23:08:50 UTC

Wait… Ok, after a reread I see ya logic. However by the wording of the relic rule, your not tech in London, so you don’t tech have the relics.

Darknight:

01-12-2010 23:14:28 UTC

to be fair, I’m like half asleep atm. Long day so I might not be thinking clearly. I’ll see what everyone else has to say.

spikebrennan:

01-12-2010 23:14:36 UTC

I don’t understand your response.  My location is irrelevant.  My possession of the Relics doesn’t depend on the 24-hour period mentioned in the “Relics” rule elapsing.  It depends upon the Universe (and, by necessary implication, all Relics) being in the bag, which I possess.

Darknight:

01-12-2010 23:16:39 UTC

Again, half alseep. Seeing that ya posted more or less at the same time lol.

NoOneImportant:

01-12-2010 23:39:53 UTC

against

Possessing the bag doesn’t mean that you are the “holder” of all four amulets. You’d still need to be granted them by the Djinn after being in their location for 24 hours.

Klisz:

01-12-2010 23:41:53 UTC

Because London, Ontario was part of Earth when ais’s wish was made, it is not part of the point that is Earth. Therefore, the point that is Earth is not within the Bag of London. Therefore, the relics are not in the Bag of London. Q.E.D.

Also, my vote doesn’t count; I’m idle.

Klisz:

01-12-2010 23:42:18 UTC

Posted at the same time as NOI.

Darknight:

01-12-2010 23:44:28 UTC

Tech Darth, London Ontario wasn’t part of Earth per say. Since its in a bag and not connected it wasn’t effected by the wish.

Klisz:

01-12-2010 23:52:22 UTC

That’s exactly what I meant to say, DK. I typoed and didn’t type the “not”.

tecslicer:

01-12-2010 23:53:32 UTC

I don’t think this would even allow you to possess the “Amulet of the Ghul” seeing as alethiophile has it, and the dijinnijiini has not re hidden it in any location. Technically we are all ON the location point(We were not shrunk), so even if the point was in the bag, the people would not be. against

Darknight:

01-12-2010 23:55:21 UTC

Thanks Tec, I had forgotten that one of the amulets was found. I really should take a nap now.

spikebrennan:

01-12-2010 23:56:57 UTC

1. London, Ontario is a Location.
2. London, Ontario is in the Bag.
3. The set “Universe” includes all Locations.
4. The Universe page provides that “Earth has shrunk to a single point, Funafuti (the capital of Tuvalu).”  Per Darknight: “such that all locations on it become the same(ais wording). This has the indirect result of also moving all relics to said location as well.”
5. If all Locations are the same, then Funafuti is in the Bag.
6. The Ruleset is clear that if A contains B and B contains C, then A contains C.
7. By necessary implication, by possessing the Bag, I possess everything in the Bag, including the Relics.

Therefore, Socrates is mortal.  Wait, what?

spikebrennan:

01-12-2010 23:59:33 UTC

The fact that other Adventurers also possess amulets is also irrelevant.  The adventurers and their respective Relics are in the Bag which is carried by me so I also carry those Relics.

Klisz:

01-13-2010 00:01:07 UTC

I believe that point 1 is incorrect, as it had been shrunken into the Bag.

Klisz:

01-13-2010 00:01:41 UTC

Also, the Adventurers are not in the bag.

NoOneImportant:

01-13-2010 00:04:03 UTC

Spike, it’s a decent argument, but I don’t buy it. I still don’t think that your possession of the bag is a sufficient condition for you to win. Relics are either “carried” or out there in the world. You can only be granted a Relic by the Djinn. Even if the whole world is in your bag, you are not the holder of the relics as per my reading of 2.9.

tecslicer:

01-13-2010 00:05:52 UTC

adventurers are not in the set “Universe” we are above the universe.

spikebrennan:

01-13-2010 00:43:51 UTC

Adventurers are at their respective Locations. There is only one Locayion and it is in the Bag. Therefore Adventurers are in the Bag.

Darknight:

01-13-2010 00:45:25 UTC

Um.. no, London Ontario was immune to ais’ wish do to the fact that it was in a bag and not on earth, per say.

spikebrennan:

01-13-2010 01:15:02 UTC

I still believe that my DoV is soundly reasoned, and I rest my case.  Before you vote, consider this: what is the alternative result?  24 hours elapse since the enactment of AIS’s wish and then, what, exactly?  An arbitrary assignment of Relics followed by a grind of Gloves, re-acquisition of Gloves, rinse, repeat?  My solution is more elegant.

Darknight:

01-13-2010 01:17:03 UTC

Yours only seems it cause ya don’t know what ais’ 3rd wish was.

yabbaguy:

01-13-2010 01:28:27 UTC

You don’t have the Ghul amulet. I fished it out, then got it robbed, but it’s not in frickin’ Phoonaphooey (or whatever the hell it is).

against

spikebrennan:

01-13-2010 01:50:35 UTC

The kilogram example in the Ruleset expressly covers this situation.

NoOneImportant:

01-13-2010 01:58:29 UTC

There are plenty of wishes left. A single wish could wipe out the “problem” of the point Universe.

Also, with respect to the kilogram. As I stated, even assuming that ALL the relics are in your bag, you still wouldn’t be “carrying” them in the sense that 2.9 requires, as far as I can tell, since the Djinn never granted them to you.

Ienpw III:

01-13-2010 02:09:21 UTC

against What NOI just said. Also, DoVs don’t have implicit author votes; spike’ll have to make an EAV.

yabbaguy:

01-13-2010 02:30:38 UTC

The fact of the matter is that you have to have the amulets IN YOUR HANDS AT THAT MOMENT in order to post a DoV, not “borderline, yeah, practically”. You don’t have it, and you have to now sweat out those remaining hours as everyone will undoubtedly find some wish to yank those amulets right out of your hands.

Sorry.

spikebrennan:

01-13-2010 02:40:47 UTC

for

Excalabur:

01-13-2010 03:21:01 UTC

I like it, but I’m idle. 

also: per se.

Darknight:

01-13-2010 03:35:19 UTC

Oh get off my grammer lol

alethiophile:

01-13-2010 03:39:42 UTC

against
You do not hold the relics, in the sense required by the ruleset, simply by holding the relic that contains them all in-universe. You might have a decent case for immediately gaining all still-hidden relics after 24 hours, but that wouldn’t include mine.

digibomber:

01-13-2010 04:23:52 UTC

against I agree with spike’s logic saying that he is the “holder” of 3 of the Amulets. But the Amulet of Ghul is still carried by alethiophile and since the Adventurers are not part of the Earth and are not in the bag spike still does not possess the last amulet needed to win.

Bucky:

01-13-2010 04:29:00 UTC

against

alethiophile:

01-13-2010 05:47:11 UTC

The question still remains, however: what happens to all the unclaimed relics? The ruleset states that a relic must be hidden or carried by *an* adventurer, which implies that it can’t be held by more than one. The ruleset implies that it would be at the Djinn’s discretion, but what else could be done?

Darknight:

01-13-2010 05:51:45 UTC

I’ve thought about that like a chess player does during those 30 mins between each move. Right now I know how to solve this.

Josh:

01-13-2010 09:04:34 UTC

for I like it.

ais523:

01-13-2010 09:58:35 UTC

against As far as I can tell: I shrank the Earth to a point. London, Ontario was not on the Earth at the time (it was inside the Bag of London instead), so it probably wasn’t affected.

Kevan:

01-13-2010 11:22:37 UTC

for

spikebrennan:

01-13-2010 12:07:26 UTC

Ais: London never stopped being a Location- there’s no justification for the contrary position.  Your wish affected all Locations.

alethiophile:

01-13-2010 14:26:59 UTC

FYI, this is now timed out and failed. I’m not sure of the protocol for failing a DoV, so I’m not doing it myself.

Uvthenfuv:

01-13-2010 14:43:30 UTC

Hmm… I don’t really want to break this post having exactly 42 comments, but for  after reading through the ruleset. Nice one ; )

ais523:

01-13-2010 15:18:25 UTC

Incidentally, doesn’t this mean that the Bag of London is now technically the Klein Bottle of London, if we’re following Spike’s argument?