Friday, May 22, 2020

Call for Judgment: Match Game

Times out at 1-4 thus failing. Dk

Adminned at 24 May 2020 18:22:12 UTC

Remove the Ace of Clubs from Josh’s hand. Generate cards by using the CARD command in the Dice Roller until a card is generated that is not already in a hand, then put that card into Josh’s hand.

Looks like this happened a few days ago but we should still fix it. Josh game himself an Ace of Clubs even though one was already in my hand. He should’ve kept generating new cards.



05-22-2020 17:33:42 UTC


Josh: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 17:56:49 UTC

for I did miss this; sorry. I don’t think it needs a cfj, raising it to my attention would have been sufficient. Fixing it now would interact weirdly with the resolution of this, though, so I guess I’ll just have to leave it as it is for now. Excessive legalism, eh.


05-22-2020 18:03:35 UTC

against This can (and, legally, should) be fixed without a CfJ. At that point, the CfJ would give Josh an additional card, so it gives him an unfair advantage. (Or in other words, this CfJ is scammable.)

Josh: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 18:08:58 UTC

That did occur to me, yes, but the mood seems to be that legitimate scans are being punished by cfjs this dynasty. I suppose I should drag Clucky and Kevan’s extra card from earlier in the dynasty back up as well, come to think of it.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 18:26:20 UTC

How would it give Josh an additional card? It would just replace the ace that shouldn’t be there with a different card.


05-22-2020 18:30:13 UTC

The ace isn’t there at the moment; it was added illegally. (Much the same way as me randomly editing the Community page to say I’d Remembered my role wouldn’t allow me to declare victory, or me randomly editing the Ruleset page to say I’d achieved victory wouldn’t allow me to declare it.)

Josh still hasn’t finished the “add a card to your hand” action, and could complete it immediately before the CfJ was enacted.

Normally CfJs are written so that they will be redundant in one possible state of affairs, and set the gamestate to the agreed-on resolution in the other state of affairs. That isn’t the case here; in the “Josh’s action was always illegal” state of affairs, which is (I believe) the actual state, the CFJ gives him an additional card rather than leaving things untouched.

Josh: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 18:30:22 UTC

If I get rid of and replace the ace myself, electively. Then this just adds a new card for free.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 18:41:04 UTC

Josh claims to have completed the action. Any attempt to go “Well see, I didn’t actually complete the action I just did an illegal thing and now am gonna complete the action I started weeks ago” would be faced with a CfJ. And I don’t want to just remove the Ace from Josh because that feels like an unfair punishment for a honest mistake.

yeah I guess Josh can remove the ace himself. So probably should’ve phrased to only trigger the second clause if the first clause occurred. But eh I trust Josh not to abuse something designed to fix an honest mistake in a friendly manner.

Josh: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 18:41:46 UTC

“A friendly manner” would have been a polite PM, not a CfJ.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 18:43:57 UTC

Also remember: Josh is claiming that he technically never performed the action that gave him the Ace of Clubs but rather the “the gamestate has been subsequently directly amended to make the value of that action,​ had it taken place,​ be valid”.

We he to try and argue that actually, he was still performing the action to give himself the Ace of Clubs and just needed to reroll it then he would find himself in a contradiction.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 18:47:35 UTC

I had sent you a PM, the options would’ve been “remove the Ace” or “Do a CFJ so we can replace the ace”. Trying to simply argue “We should go ahead and reroll it and say that Josh has always had the result in his hand, the gamestate has just been out of sync” could’ve created major issues if the re-rolled value was say the 5 of Hearts, meaning Trigon also needed to reroll.

As I imagined you wouldn’t want to go with “remove the Ace” CFJ seemed like the prudent option that fixed things with the least amount of fuss.

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 20:14:54 UTC


If Josh was still midway through the “generate cards by using the CARD command in the Dice Roller until a card is generated that is not already in a hand” step of an action started two days ago, his gathering evidence taken moments later would have been illegal (“An Amnesiac may not take more than one dynastic game action at the same time (excluding any actions which have been ongoing for more than three hours).”), meaning that ais523’s Burglary of it was illegal.

The ruleset seems to frown on prolonged game actions (Fair Play is against it if you do it deliberately) but doesn’t actually outlaw them or terminate them if forgotten, which is maybe an oversight.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 20:25:16 UTC

Doesn’t “An Amnesiac may not take more than one dynastic game action” referring one Amnesiac? Two different Amnesiac can do a dynastic action at the same time because its hard to enforce that.

What do you think the resolution for the problem that we have two Ace’s of Clubs be Kevan?

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 20:35:17 UTC

Josh took the “gather Evidence at Jail” action while he was still taking the “generate a card” action; that’s one Amnesiac taking two actons at the same time. If we assume the Evidence action can’t have legally happened, this in turn makes Ais523’s Burglary action illegal, as Josh only had 1 Evidence at the time, and Burglary requires the target to have 2.

My take would be that Ais523 loses 1 Evidence (and isn’t considered to have performed the action), Josh loses the ace from his hand (because no rule put it there) and Josh finishes at leisure the “generate a card” action by rolling cards until he gets one that doesn’t match the players’ current hands.


05-22-2020 20:38:51 UTC

I think that’s reasonable, although I also think we need a better fix for this sort of situation. I wouldn’t object to anyone editing the wiki to match that, if they thought that’s what the gamestate should be.


05-22-2020 20:39:05 UTC

against CoV

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 20:43:33 UTC

But my understanding is that Josh is arguing that he never actually performed the generate a card action on the 18th. Rather, when the idle fix passed the gamestate was simply updated to be in alignment with what it would’ve been if he had performed the action. Hence why he was able to generate another card on the 20th.

Hard for him to finish an action he never officially started.

The idle stuff has basically turned this into a knot that is really hard to just undo. Hence why I’d rather be like “okay lets just replace his card with another one and be done with it”

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 20:58:17 UTC

Aren’t we just looking at the generation on the 20th?

The rule is “Once per Act, an Amnesiac may generate cards by using the CARD command in the Dice Roller until a card is generated that is not already in a hand, then put that card into their hand.”

Josh used the CARD command once, got the Ace of Spaces and put that into the wiki table. This update was illegal, as no rule allowed him to put that card there. Instead he should have generated further cards “until a card is generated that is not already in a hand”, but he didn’t, he stopped and did something else.

We are, I think, still waiting for him to finish that action.

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 21:00:39 UTC

Whether Josh’s generate-card action (and whatever others he took, including possible messages to the Past Memory) was illegal because he’d already taken it is separate question, and we should CfJ this at some point soon.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 21:22:42 UTC

Josh got the Ace of Spades on the 20th. He got the ace of clubs on the 18th.

There was nothing illegal about him adding the Ace of Spades, because no one else has the Ace of Spades

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 21:29:47 UTC

Ah! Okay. Then that card definitely never appeared legally, and there weren’t any knock-on effects in the next three hours (unless he sent the Past Memory a message about something). And we should sort out the “did the We Forgot Something CfJ also set past game actions” question to decide whether he’s still halfway through that action (having performed some steps but not others) or it never happened.

Also we should look into how this man is drawing so many aces.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-22-2020 21:38:24 UTC

Yeah. I just felt like determining that he’s still halfway through that action (which would make his drawing of the second ace illegal so he loses the AS), or that the action never happened (which would mean he loses the AC) are both more contentious moves in that they hurt Josh. Hence my third option “lets just not worry about it and instead give Josh another card”

Darknight: HE/HIM

05-23-2020 14:01:30 UTC