Friday, May 29, 2020

Proposal: No More Bets, Please

Self-killed. Failed by Kevan.

Adminned at 31 May 2020 18:03:03 UTC

In “Wages”, replace “As a Daily Communal Action, an Amnesiac may Spin The Wheel” with:-

If no Amnesiac has changed their own Wager or Spun the Wheel within the past 12 hours, an Amnesiac may Spin The Wheel

Would be fairer to wait for Wagers to settle down before Spinning the Wheel, rather than rewarding players who can be online at midnight, with a strong incentive to conceal their true bet until 11:59pm. And if we hit a situation where there’s no Nash equilibrium and each of two players have to keep rationally changing their own wager in response to the other’s, we’ve got a bigger problem to fix, and it’d be unfair to be calling that at midnight under the current rule.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus: HE/THEY

05-29-2020 19:34:41 UTC

Does this intentionally allow twice daily spinning of the wheel?


05-29-2020 19:43:29 UTC

Did you mean to refer to the rule “Wagers” or nonexistent one called “Wages”? Otherwise, I like this proposal.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-29-2020 20:05:53 UTC

Couldn’t this result in the wheel just never getting spun? Not even a nash equilibrium kinda thing. just very easy for people to keep pushing back the wheel spinning.

Clucky: HE/HIM

05-29-2020 20:21:09 UTC

proposed an alternative that I think helps solve the problem to some degree while still ensuring the wheel is spun approx once per day

Josh: HE/HIM

05-29-2020 20:39:03 UTC

against The leader can just stun-lock the wheel to maintain an advantage forever

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-29-2020 20:42:17 UTC

There is no forever in Nomic!

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-29-2020 21:23:52 UTC

But yes, we could add another rule to deal with that. I doubt anyone would bother locking the wheel this early for the sake of it.


05-29-2020 21:38:06 UTC



05-29-2020 22:44:14 UTC

against This sort of stunlock is totally the sort of thing I’d do if it were legal, and I don’t want to have to.

There’s also a decent chance that the wheel will end up naturally stunlocking itself. With this many players, 2 Wager changes a day is hardly unlikely.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus: HE/THEY

05-30-2020 00:50:07 UTC


Kevan: HE/HIM

05-30-2020 08:28:40 UTC

If Wager changes are spread out that much, isn’t that a sign that we should slow down and give everyone a chance to respond, rather than being tough on the players who only check BlogNomic in the UTC morning and never get to react to later Wagers before the Wheel gets Spun?

Locking the Wheel right now for no reason surely risks setting you up for retaliation from any player who is sufficiently annoyed by it.

Darknight: HE/HIM

05-30-2020 12:10:20 UTC



05-30-2020 12:33:01 UTC

@Kevan: Wager changes are spread out that much because most people change their Wagers at random points in the day rather than cooperating to all group together. We have 15 players, so if each player changes their wager once per week on average, we have a change a little more than once every 12 hours on average. In practice, many players seem to want to change more than once per week (and the passage of proposals, and reacting to other people’s Wager changes, means that people have incentives to change even if the Wheel hasn’t been spun).

I also note that you’re well ahead of everyone else in points at the moment, and thus would have the most to gain from stunlocking the Wheel.

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-30-2020 13:21:54 UTC

Oh, I proposed this before the most recent Spin, at which point I was in seventh place. And there’ll likely be another spin before this enacts. And I personally wouldn’t risk the kickback from “ha ha, I delay the next spin because I can”.

Looks like my mistake for reading the dynasty as being in a “build things gradually together” mood when people might be in more of a “ruleset should always function as a completed, standalone game” one. I just decided not to overload this with extra mechanics for how I personally thought we should also deal with deliberate stunlocking.


05-30-2020 16:53:08 UTC


Clucky: HE/HIM

05-30-2020 18:02:34 UTC

> Locking the Wheel right now for no reason surely risks setting you up for retaliation from any player who is sufficiently annoyed by it.

I think this actually highlights one of my problems with the rule though.

Lets say you log onto blognomic for the first time in a bit over a day. A perfectly acceptable way to play. You go to change your bets. But the wheel was 30 minutes away from being spun. Now you’ve added 12 hours to that. You weren’t maliciously trying to slow down the game with your action, but you have. And now people might get angry at you.

What we really need is a system for players to input secrets and then have those secrets revealed at a certain date…

Kevan: HE/HIM

05-30-2020 19:40:01 UTC

Yeah, that does sound “perfectly acceptable”, and maybe means we should be adjusting our baseline expectation for Spins to be once every 48 hours, rather than once every 24.

I think the fairest implementation of a “we make bets, we look around at other bets and can change our mind” system is a potentially-infinite round where we all make sure that nobody else wants to change their mind. I guess we’re just having to decide how much we want to constrain “and can change your mind”, without creating timing issues.

Secret bids would fix it, but would be a very different game. I quite like the roulette mood we’ve already got going.


05-30-2020 20:52:04 UTC


Kevan: HE/HIM

05-31-2020 18:01:24 UTC

against Self-kill, on we go.