Saturday, August 07, 2021

Proposal: No More Camels

Fewer than a quorum not voting against. Failed 2 votes to 7 by Kevan.

Adminned at 08 Aug 2021 10:43:34 UTC

In the sentence “An official post may be altered by its author if it is less than 4 hours old and either no General has commented on it or (if it is a Votable Matter) if all comments on it contain no voting icons; otherwise this can only be done as allowed by the Ruleset” in the Appendix, remove ‘it is less than 4 hours old and either’ and ‘or (if it is a Votable Matter) if all comments on it contain no voting icons’.

The current rule is a camel; 4 hours pleases nobody.

I think that the edit window should be long - essentially a separate phase of a proposal’s existence. But that isn’t popular, so my second choice is that it’s gone. We have other methods for seeking community feedback on ideas - chat rooms, drafts on the wiki - and other mechanisms for fixing typos.

The edit window creates the illusion that every player gets to input on an idea before it gets voted on. They don’t; only the proposer does. If their idea passes, other players can amend it. If it fails, they can fix it and repropose it. The tyranny of the edit window forces players to may too much attention to this game, and removes the sting from the voting window: the appropriate time to feed back on a proposal is over the course of the 48 hours that follow it being posted, and everyone should get to do it, not just those who disturbed their sleep enough to clap eyes on it early.


lemon: she/her

07-08-2021 09:30:13 UTC

i think this is a good idea overall, but i object to it as a player who benefits from seeing my proposals on the page, & will often post and then do 1-3 little edits in the 10m following the proposal’s posting. i’d appreciate a 15-minute no-comment window at bare minimum, to match the window on changing post categories

Josh: he/they

07-08-2021 09:36:19 UTC

Tell you what, I’ll give you 20.

The EE timestamp issue will be a factor here, so it might end up needing to be more like 30.

lemon: she/her

07-08-2021 09:39:34 UTC

u could even change it to be no comments at all; i don’t particularly care about whether ppl can offer feedback post-posting, since this change shifts things strongly towards feedback pre-posting :0

(doesn’t one of the new player guides strongly advise against sitting around in the post editor? i swear i was warned of that somehow, i just write all my proposals externally n copy+paste them in)

Josh: he/they

07-08-2021 10:09:09 UTC

(That’s what I do too, but not everyone does)

Lulu: she/her

07-08-2021 12:40:01 UTC

oh i’ve just been writing them in the editor and then copy pasting the text to restart the post date

Lulu: she/her

07-08-2021 12:53:58 UTC

against 4 hours pleases me, i proposed it >.>

lemon: she/her

07-08-2021 13:06:17 UTC


Darknight: he/him

07-08-2021 13:37:32 UTC


Raven1207: he/they

07-08-2021 13:55:53 UTC


Kevan: City he/him

07-08-2021 14:31:42 UTC

I’d like to give this a go, but not against the preference of the Emperor, given how much the last window change affected the dynasty it happened in.


Clucky: he/him

07-08-2021 14:51:38 UTC

against I worry this would just lead to people needing to be more active on the slack/discord and discussions taking place there as to not break the edit seal

Kevan: City he/him

07-08-2021 15:01:55 UTC

This would reopen the trapdoor from the old days where commenting “you forgot to put this in the proposal category!” on a post locks it and prevents it being put into the proposal category. I guess we’re assuming that a player is more likely to be on Slack/Discord within the next ten minutes, than to reload the blog in that time - is that a fair assumption?


07-08-2021 15:08:06 UTC

I prefer that input remains in Proposal comments

Janet: she/her

07-08-2021 15:27:07 UTC



07-08-2021 16:21:13 UTC

for a) we already have an exception for new players who forget to put the proposal category on posts, and b) a post that’s in the wrong category doesn’t use a slot, so there’s no real penalty for reposting (you can even delete the original unofficial post!).

I do think that this should seal proposals almost instantly (probably 15 minutes, allowing posters to correct issues that arise due to ExpressionEngine’s lack of a preview function) even if there are no comments, though, to prevent people bypassing the intent of the rule via using private messages or Slack or the like.

Kevan: City he/him

07-08-2021 16:32:15 UTC

Even the most veteran of players sometimes forget to click the button, and as far as I’m aware regular players (and maybe even admins) cannot delete their own posts, only blank them down to a placeholder.


07-08-2021 17:02:04 UTC

I just created and deleted a test post.

It’s possible for non-admins, it’s just very non-obvious how you do it. (You have to go via this administrative link, which is accessible for non-admins but shows them only their own post; it’s linked from the wiki home page.)

Veterans do forget to click the button sometimes, but in my experience, they nearly always notice their mistake within the 15-minute “wrong category” window (and commenting on the post seems unlikely to significantly increase the chance that they notice in time).

Josh: he/they

07-08-2021 17:11:21 UTC

You can also just open a new “New Post” window and copy-paste the text in to sidestep the timestamp bug.

Lulu: she/her

08-08-2021 00:57:02 UTC

also wouldn’t we get more protosals, which aren’t great as discussed in this essay


08-08-2021 06:00:17 UTC

CoV against, not because I disagree with the sentiment behind this proposal, but because there’s a significant chance that this proposal was posted during Hiatus, in which case it cannot do anything when enacted, not even with the help of a CFJ declaring it legal, and I’d prefer to avoid uncertainty about whether the rule change it suggests is in place or not.