Tuesday, August 30, 2011

Proposal: Objections

Timed out 7 votes to 2. Enacted by Kevan.

Adminned at 02 Sep 2011 07:27:21 UTC

Add a new rule, called “Using Items in the Most Creative Ways”:

As a daily action, a Survivor may make an Idea post (a Story post containing “Eureka!” in the Title), describing the functions of one Items (or more combined) and proposing a gamestate effect related to this. The Capitain should then decide if that’s a realistic usage of the Item(s) and if the gamestate effect is fair enough for the other Survivors. If he thinks it is, he should Vote FOR that Idea Post. If an Idea Post has been posted for more than 24 hours, it is considered to be closed.
Any Survivor may Vote on an Idea Post.
A closed Idea Post may have Passed or not.
When closing, and Idea Post Passes exclusively if at that time:
* The Captain voted FOR it, and there are less than a Quorum and a half (rounded down) of AGAINST votes on it.
* The Captain did not cast a Vote on it, and there is a Quorum of FOR Votes on it.
When an Idea Post about some Items Passes, the gamestate effect related to those Items shall be listed in the “Ideas” wiki page, and start applying effectively to the gamestate.

I made easy to make interesting powerful Items since I like creativity.
Changes I want to make in my next proposals:
* Making food supplies limited.
* Allowing unlimited Items transactions.



30-08-2011 10:25:03 UTC

I like the idea of Items doing things, but I’m not clear on how Idea posts would differ significantly from Proposals?

Kevan: he/him

30-08-2011 10:34:22 UTC

You can make as many as you like, they time out after only 24 hours (but still require a full quorum in favour), and they can’t be self-killed or vetoed. The last bit seems like something we might regret.


30-08-2011 10:37:41 UTC

* are easier to enact (with the Captain’s FOR) but impossible with the Captain’s AGAINST
* don’t count towards your Proposal limits
* don’t add rules to the Ruleset
* can’t do anything else
* are way faster
* may be enacted by any Survivor

I think that’s all.


30-08-2011 10:38:47 UTC

imperial In that case I’m largely indifferent! :-)


30-08-2011 10:40:45 UTC

Cross Posted.
Veto: You just need to vote AGAINST.
Full quorum: not needed unless you didn’t vote on it.
I just realized that it’s not explicit that the two bullet points are in either/or relation, but one may argue it’s obvious, since they state incompatible conditions.

Kevan: he/him

30-08-2011 10:45:07 UTC

Might also be a problem that the rule says I “should” vote for any Idea which is realistic and fair, and that even with 75% of players objecting to it, that Idea will enact after 24 hours. Depending on the victory condition, this could be a way for whoever’s in the lead to speed to victory by giving a “fair” and equal boost to every player.

Seems a decent enough direction for now, though.


Kevan: he/him

30-08-2011 10:52:01 UTC

[Kitty] It’s not the case that they “don’t add rules to the Ruleset” or “can’t do anything else” - Items can include any “gamestate effect”, so you could invent one which created new rules.

Fair point on the veto, though, I misread the second bullet as “if the Captain has not voted FOR”.

Prince Anduril:

30-08-2011 13:03:51 UTC

imperial I guess I’m happy with this to start with. Though as a rule I’m still a bit uneasy about the Captain having so much power. I think that there should be a way to override the Captain’s decision, where it is just their opinion. Or does the CfJ’s already have enough power to do this?


30-08-2011 18:56:17 UTC



30-08-2011 21:22:45 UTC

Erm… I think I may have spotted one of those horrible, pedantic things that occasionally plagues Nomic. I don’t think this is a problem if nobody else does, but thought I should point it out:

Rule 1.1 makes clear that the Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered as specified in the Ruleset. However, “Using Items in the Most Creative Ways” adds the possibility of text on the “Ideas” wiki page doing likewise. This is a problem, because it doesn’t seem to say anywhere that other Wiki pages can’t be edited whenever people feel like doing so.

For example, if I were enough of a scoundrel I could add to the Ideas page “whenever a Survivor makes a post or comments on a post, bateleur wins”. :-D


30-08-2011 21:29:11 UTC



30-08-2011 21:41:23 UTC

The Ideas page is Gamestate, since it’s “Any information which the Ruleset regulates the alteration of” (3.1).
1.1 The Ruleset and Gamestate can only be altered in manners specified by the Ruleset.
The Ruleset specifies that the Ideas page (part of the Gamestate) may contain sentences that effect the Gamestate.
It’s ok as I see it.

Kevan: he/him

30-08-2011 21:42:24 UTC

[bateleur] I think it’s okay. Gamestate is defined as “any information which the Ruleset regulates the alteration of” in Rule 3.1, which means that we can’t just edit the effects of Items at will. Given that the only gamestate-effecting parts of the wiki page are “the gamestate effect related to those Items”, I can’t see that adding further text to the page would have any effect - there’s no blanket “everything on this page is legally enforceable”, it’s just a record of some gamestate effects we voted through in Eureka posts.

I think that’s right, but I could be wrong. It is worth being very careful whenever someone proposes a new way to inject arbitrary rule text into the game…


31-08-2011 06:20:12 UTC

Ah, no, that does look correct - I’d overlooked that it doesn’t actually refer to the Ideas page for what the items do. Probably fine, then. :-)

Prince Anduril:

31-08-2011 11:18:15 UTC

With 4 votes so far, it looks like this may fail anyway.

Kevan: he/him

31-08-2011 11:22:48 UTC

[Anduril] If a proposal times out after 48 hours, it does not require a full quorum of FOR votes - only more FOR votes than AGAINST.

Kevan: he/him

31-08-2011 11:57:16 UTC

Actually, I don’t think this proposal is going to work - a vote is defined as “a Vote that is cast in accordance with Rule ‘Voting’”, which says that a player can only “cast their Vote on a Votable Matter”, and Idea Posts are not defined as Votable Matters.

This means there is no way to legally cast a vote on an Idea Post.


31-08-2011 12:12:23 UTC

“Any Survivor may Vote on an Idea Post.”
3.1 Votable Matter:
“A post which Survivors may cast Votes on, such as a Proposal, a Call for Judgment or a Declaration of Victory.”

I know, it’s the cat biting her own tail. But it works.
If you may Vote on it, it’s a Votable Matter. If it’s a Votable Matter, you may Vote on it.
But that’s a problem of the Ruleset.

Kevan: he/him

31-08-2011 12:15:40 UTC

Ah, no, that seems okay - “Any Survivor may Vote on an Idea Post” is just as valid a way into the loop as “An Idea Post is a Votable Matter”. And it seems nice and intuitive that we can just say “players may vote on this”. Carry on, then.


31-08-2011 14:37:22 UTC



31-08-2011 20:23:38 UTC


Darknight: he/him

31-08-2011 22:45:42 UTC



02-09-2011 03:43:45 UTC