Thursday, February 21, 2013

Off the Field

This may not be so relevant anymore, but how can we accurately phrase this?

∀x (x ∈ {hon. members} ↔ x ∈ {possible winners})

Something like “No rule can make the set of possible winners unequal to the set of the Honourable Members.” But that must be removed from time; for example, we should allow a rule that defines victory as having 50 Credibility even though some Hon. Members couldn’t reach that because they’re Corrupt. Would a “in terms of the current Gamestate” help at all for name changes?

Just thinking out loud. Might be useful for core rules.



02-22-2013 00:50:56 UTC

Before I say anything else, would someone be so kind as to bring me up to speed and explain why this sort of rules change has been proposed in several forms over the past few days? I feel like I would have a better chance at finding a good formulation of this rule or explaining why this might not work if I understood why this is necessary.


02-22-2013 00:56:27 UTC

People have been posting Proposals along the lines of “Player has achieved victory” and attempting to force them through with Political Capital. It hasn’t worked, but it’d be good to stop them, just in case.


02-22-2013 01:14:33 UTC

Excellent. Thank you; that is exactly what I thought I would hear. Then, the idea of removing this from time and formulating it in terms of the current gamestate is not so far from what I was thinking of, which is this:

“No Proposal may propose to change the Ruleset in such a way as to make it possible for one or more Honourable Members to achieve victory at the instant the Proposal is enacted. Such a Proposal may be marked as illegal, etc., etc.”

This seems like it might work—any thoughts on this?


02-22-2013 01:19:00 UTC

I disagree with this equation and formulation.  More accurate would be ∀x (x ∈ {hon. members} & (x <> speaker)—> x ∈ {possible winners}).  Perhaps, in words this would look like:

“No rule may propose a win condition that is impossible for any subset of players to acheive”


02-22-2013 01:47:33 UTC

This is impossible to achieve without a human arbiter.  The rule can just be something like “whoever has exactly X credibility achieves victory” or “everyone in the Religious party achieves victory”, something that could be a legitimate victory condition in other circumstances but just happens to favor a specific player.


02-22-2013 12:41:22 UTC

Those, potentially, would be fine rules, since those could apply to anyone - since it’s possible for a player to get (or have gotten) to that place.  Rules like, “larrytheturtle wins” is not ok, though, since I could never fulfill that requirement.


02-22-2013 13:08:28 UTC

Sorry nqeron; I wasn’t sure whether or not the Speaker could win, but it makes sense that they can’t.

I like both ideas, but are they both necessary?


02-22-2013 16:53:46 UTC

nqeron, my point is that if someone can push through a proposal to make them win, they can also push through a proposal to create a victory condition that they just happen to be the only one to satisfy (or be able to satisfy immediately after enactment); the result is the same,


02-22-2013 17:39:12 UTC


The other major change was moving from iff to implies.  I’m not sure it needs to be the case an individual who belongs the set of possible winners implies that the individual is either an honourable member or not the speaker.  Perhaps there is someone who can’t win, but is an hon. member or a speaker - like in my rule regarding corruption.  (or a rule that stated corrupt members cannot achieve victory). 

omd:  yes they could, but it would be based in a game mechanic that anyone could have achieved. (and could still achieve, given enough effort).  I don’t have a problem with these.  I have a problem with rules that only limit the win to a single possible individual.  It’s a fine and subtle distinction, but it’s important.  It also makes it easier to distinguish between ‘bad’ proposals for victory and ‘good’ ones.  With your stipulation, it would be pretty hard to ever institute a rule like, “whoever has the most credibility” - which would be an acceptable way to end a dynasty.  It’s not really ok to say - “I win, because I win”.