Friday, January 15, 2010

Proposal: Rereversion revision

Reached quorum 17 votes to 5. Enacted by Kevan.

Adminned at 16 Jan 2010 10:24:16 UTC

In rule 1.7 “Gamestate Tracking”, replace

All updates to the GNDT are logged - if a Guest feels that an alteration goes against the Rules (as they were at the time of the alteration), he may simply undo the effects of that alteration. If such an undoing is disputed, a Call for Judgment shall be raised.

with

All updates to the GNDT are logged. Actions that change gamestate directly (defined in other rules) can normally be performed simply by applying their effects to the GNDT, which updates the gamestate accordingly, unless another rule specifies some other method of performing them; one GNDT update may contain one or more actions, or one action may be split over multiple GNDT updates, as long as it’s clear what is happening and the actions are otherwise legal. A GNDT update that does not perform a rules-defined action does not alter the gamestate; Guests should not alter the GNDT except to correct it to match the actual gamestate (in the case that the two somehow end up different), or to perform an action.

If a Guest feels that the GNDT was altered such that it no longer matches the gamestate (such as by performing an action which was against the Rules (as they were at the time of the alteration), or by any other means), he may simply undo the effects of that alteration. Instead of repeatedly reverting and re-reverting a disputed GNDT update, Guests are encouraged to raise a Call for Judgment instead.

 

The start of a dynasty is generally the best time to tweak the core rules. What the rules say at the moment clearly isn’t what they’re supposed to say; hopefully this should fix it. This also adds some rules that people have been following for months, but which weren’t explicitly stated, explicitly to the ruleset.
The individual changes: avoid mandatory calling of a pointless CFJ after a GNDT rereversion, allow players to alter the GNDT to match the gamestate if they differ (we’ve been doing this for years, but it’s technically illegal!), explicitly state the informal rule that multiple actions can be combined into one GNDT update, state that players can perform gamestate-altering actions just by changing the GNDT (newbies keep posting them on the blog instead, and technically speaking, I think they’re correct under the old ruleset).
Incidentally, this also clarifies what happens in the case of gamestate that updates automatically at a certain time; the gamestate actually changes, and any Guest can update the GNDT to match the gamestate. This is what we were doing anyway (in, say, Amnistar’s dynasty), but it’s nice to make it clear.

Comments

alethiophile:

15-01-2010 14:06:12 UTC

for Seems good. I’m a bit worried about the last paragraph—as written, it recommends a CfJ but technically allows players to simply edit-war.

ais523:

15-01-2010 14:21:00 UTC

@alethiophile: it’s to allow rereversions when the players agree what the state should be (as was the case in the last dynasty), without the need for a CfJ. If the players disagree, then either one of them will call a CfJ eventually, or someone else will if the two players in question keep edit-warring.

Roujo: he/him

15-01-2010 14:31:09 UTC

for Per ais ^^

spikebrennan:

15-01-2010 14:35:20 UTC

We have to be very careful about the sentence “Actions that change gamestate directly (defined in other rules) can normally be performed simply by applying their effects to the GNDT, which updates the gamestate”—if I understand it correctly, this reverses the existing policy that the GNDT is merely an attempt to reflect Gamestate, rather than actually influencing the status of Gamestate.

Hix:

15-01-2010 14:51:10 UTC

sb:  It works both ways, sort of.  If a rule says I can increase my Strength by 1 as a daily action, and I edit the GNDT to increase my Strength by 1, then I am assumed to have performed the daily action in question “as long as it’s clear what is happening and the actions are otherwise legal”.  This is an assumption that several players make, but is too tedious to have to write into every GNDT-using rule that we make on a case-by-case basis.  I’ve tried writing such rules.  They get real wordy real fast.


On the other hand, it’s still true that the GNDT merely represents the Gamestate, in the sense that incorrect alterations of the GNDT cause it to become inaccurate:  you’re not allowed to justify the Gamestate simply on a “well, the GNDT currently says so” basis.

for

Kevan: he/him

15-01-2010 14:55:59 UTC

for A little overblown - I don’t like bloating the core rules too much - but it seems more useful than not. It might be time for another background wiki-discussed replace-in-one-go overhaul of the core ruleset.

Josh: Observer he/they

15-01-2010 15:07:42 UTC

against I’m a bit conservative when it comes to the core rules, especially when I can’t think of a specific instance where there was a problem that needed fixing.

Oze:

15-01-2010 16:35:03 UTC

for

digibomber:

15-01-2010 17:59:23 UTC

against Too wordy

There:

15-01-2010 18:28:31 UTC

for

Dustin:

15-01-2010 20:11:22 UTC

for

NoOneImportant:

15-01-2010 21:10:05 UTC

for

Makes sense…

Darknight: he/him

15-01-2010 21:47:56 UTC

for

TrumanCapote:

15-01-2010 22:50:15 UTC

against

Echoing Josh.

tecslicer:

15-01-2010 23:44:23 UTC

against as per Digi

Thrawn:

16-01-2010 02:51:35 UTC

imperial
Doesn’t seem neccesary to me…

Greytyphoon:

16-01-2010 03:28:37 UTC

imperial  I don’t see much difference. Also, I didn’t play Nomic for long enough to imagine how this could change a lot of things.

yabbaguy:

16-01-2010 04:42:52 UTC

Why are we voting DEFs that become FORs if we don’t think it’s necessary?

However, I think since there are supposed “technically illegal but should be happening” instances in the game like the proposer states, I’ll buy that.  for

“Too wordy” is never an acceptable way to say No, IMO.

Excalabur:

16-01-2010 11:32:43 UTC

against yabba: it’s always an acceptable way to say no.

redtara: they/them

16-01-2010 15:41:11 UTC

for The core rules should be patched, like anything else. Is anyone out there still using Internet Explorer 6? Or Firefox 1.0? Updating the rules is better than having them full of holes.

spikebrennan:

16-01-2010 16:14:52 UTC

for
per Hix and Kevan

Klisz:

16-01-2010 16:24:03 UTC

for

Klisz:

16-01-2010 16:46:40 UTC

One more FOR vote for this to reach quorum.

Ornithopter:

16-01-2010 18:13:51 UTC

for
Dropdowns are possible and explained at the bottom of the GNDT Config page for any admin who doesn’t know how to make them. (Or who forgot, like I did.)

Ornithopter:

16-01-2010 18:20:32 UTC

Sorry, had the wrong tab open, but that is my intended vote.

Uvthenfuv:

16-01-2010 19:00:42 UTC

for