Saturday, August 15, 2020

Call for Judgment: Should-shovelling

48h old and not Popular, it is Unpopular. - CB

Adminned at 17 Aug 2020 09:16:29 UTC

My mistake, some slopping drafting from me here, but in Proposal: This Thing Is My Thing I wrote “[The Computer] should then replace the words “Description Pending” in the Description of that Discovery to the description with which they have been provided.”

The Computer is interpreting this as an optional instruction. We can go back through the ruleset and the history of the game and dig up decades of arguments supporting either side of this; the appendix says “is recommended to” but Fair Play endows a number of “should” statements with the force of a “must”. The long-languishing imperatives rework will hopefully fix this, but for here and now, it’s caused a problem.

My contention is that, in almost every instance, the term “should” exists to protect the game from being put into an illegal state by non-compliance, and it does not actually endow the player with complete discression to not comply. Therefore my remedy is that the Computer immediately implement the description for the Unknown Cortex Mineral provided to them by the Pathfinder called Josh.

Full disclosure: this is a victory scam.

Comments

Madrid:

15-08-2020 09:47:16 UTC

So, in the Apprendix, we got our Should:
Should
  “is recommended that”

And we got ourShall:
Shall
  “is required to”

Sorry, but the Appendix is pretty clear about what “should” is, as janky as it currently is. If he had to do it, it would’ve been a “shall”, I believe. Or a “must”. But it’s not. It’s just a “should”.

So, Kevan is in his right (as things are written currently) to do what he did.

against

Josh: Observer he/they

15-08-2020 09:57:42 UTC

So your belief is that all instances of “should” in the ruleset can be disregarded at the discretion of the player?

Even fair play?

Madrid:

15-08-2020 10:15:07 UTC

No slippery slope here. Fair Play works because there are penalties for violating the rule.

Madrid:

15-08-2020 10:19:20 UTC

(The penalties aren’t specified and still behind similar ‘should’ language and are still up to discretion though. But you get the idea.)

Kevan: he/him

15-08-2020 10:23:22 UTC

I did propose earlier in the year that it would help if Emperors explicitly picked a style from a list so that we’d know what their priorities were (eg. whether they’d veto a victory scam proposal that nobody else had noticed, or wave it through silently with a DEF and warmly congratulate the scammer during the DoV), but people were almost unanimously against clarifying this, at the time.

It’s hard to search for examples in the archives - all I can find is the optional coughing in the Plague Dynasty - but I feel like we’ve accepted many unperformed “shoulds” in the past where it would result in a fully legal but disruptive, destructive or otherwise unwanted state, even if only from the point of view of the action’s performer. From where I’m sitting, ending the dynasty (or setting up a contentious DoV) would be disruptive at this point in the game, and I’d choose not to take “the Computer should press the button” action, given the option.

Josh: Observer he/they

15-08-2020 10:34:08 UTC

The point from the post is that “should” may be optional but it’s less that fully discretional. There are very few shoulds that allow a player to just disregard something because they don’t feel like doing it.

Madrid:

15-08-2020 10:53:00 UTC

I still don’t see it as totally binding. A shall or must, sure. I can see a really good case for that.

But for shall which is just a recommendation, I can just sip air through my teeth. I don’t see it as being something someone has to do, there’s just some social pressure and the encouragement of some arbitrary action if it’s not done.

But it’s not strictly compulsory. There’s other words for that.

Madrid:

15-08-2020 10:53:29 UTC

*But for should which is just a

Kevan: he/him

15-08-2020 11:05:55 UTC

I know I always consider these as discretional when writing them or scrutinising proposed rules. When we say “the Emperor should post a weekly bulletin”, we’re saying that nothing breaks if the Emperor is physically unable to do this - but also that we can’t really object if the Emperor says on Sunday evening that they don’t feel like it this week and will just be taking some lesser game actions, sorry everyone.

When we say “players should rewind tapes before returning them”, and a scammer deliberately returns all their tapes unrewound, to win, we can only react with social disapproval; I don’t think we can argue that the ruleset didn’t permit them this discretion.

Kevan: he/him

15-08-2020 11:58:16 UTC

against

Kevan: he/him

15-08-2020 11:58:59 UTC

(In fact, I don’t think we’d even react with social disapproval, to a tape-rewinding win, we’d kick ourselves for not making the rule that unrewound tapes couldn’t be returned.)

derrick: he/him

15-08-2020 14:39:34 UTC

against