Tuesday, January 26, 2010

Proposal: The Westing Game, take 1

Timed out 3 votes to 13. Failed by Kevan.

Adminned at 28 Jan 2010 09:15:22 UTC

Add a dynastic rule entitled “Victory conditions” as follows:

* No Guest who is Dead may declare victory.

* A Guest who is a Murderer may declare victory at any time when all of the following conditions are concurrently satisfied:
(1) all other Guests having a lower degree of relation to Lord Cartlesham are Dead, Arrested, Poisoned or Terrified, and
(2) the Guest in question is not Dormant, and
(3) the lights are on, and
(4) the Guest in question has posted a blog post stating that the Guest in question believes that he has inherited Lord Cartlesham’s estate by virtue of this clause, and the Executor has posted a comment to such blog post confirming that the Guest in question has inherited the estate.

* A Guest who is a Detective may declare victory at any time when all of the following conditions are concurrently satisfied: 
(1) all Murderers are Dead, Arrested or Poisoned, and
(2) the Guest in question is not Dormant, and
(3) the lights are on, and
(4) the Guest in question has posted a blog post stating that the Guest in question is a Detective, and stating his belief that all of the Murderers have been Arrested or are Dead, and the Executor has posted a comment to such blog post confirming that such statements are accurate, and
(5) such Guest has neither proposed a Crisis nor voted in favor of a Crisis that, in either case, resulted in any Guest who was not a Murderer becoming Dead or Arrested.  If two or more Detectives satisfy all of the foregoing requirements to declare victory but for this sentence, then only the first of the Detectives to post the blog post referenced in subclause (4) of the preceding sentence may declare victory.

* Any Guest may declare victory at any time when all of the following conditions are concurrently satisfied:
(1) all other Guests having a lower degree of relation to Lord Cartlesham are Dead or Arrested,
(2) the Guest in question is not Dormant,
(3) the lights are on,
(4) the Guest in question has posted a blog post stating that the Guest in question believes that he will inherit Lord Cartlesham’s estate in 96 hours time by virtue of this clause,
(5) at least 96 hours after the blog post referenced in subclause (4) has been posted, the Executor has posted a blog post confirming that the Guest in question has inherited the estate, and
(6) the Guest in question was in the Library when the blog post described in subclause (4) was posted, and was in the Library when the confirmatory blog post described in subclause (5) was posted.

Comments

redtara: they/them

26-01-2010 17:57:18 UTC

This is rather disadvantageous to me. against

spikebrennan:

26-01-2010 17:58:52 UTC

Yeah, well, sorry.  I can’t think of a thematically-appropriate way for a Dead Guest to achieve victory.

Uvthenfuv:

26-01-2010 18:52:53 UTC

Everyone dies everyone wins? : )

Oh, and with that ruleset, all of us could just start posting DoVs of ‘I won!’ ‘I won!’ ‘I won!’, one of them is surely the winner…

The library part… seems rather pointless, except for tug wars of the Aristocrat type, for example.

It should also include a ‘is non-dormant or asleep’ part after those 96 hours… let’s leave some space for still-living murderers and/or detectives to rampage ; )

Uvthenfuv:

26-01-2010 18:53:20 UTC

oh, forgot the against

Klisz:

26-01-2010 19:12:48 UTC

against  I’m against giving restrictions on declaring victory. On achieving victory, sure; but what if a dead guest is voted to win by a proposal?

Keba:

26-01-2010 19:23:35 UTC

I think the proposal isnt that well formulated. It would be much easier to read, if there were a “The Guest in question is not Dormant and the lights are on” at the beginning. But thats not important though.

Also i assume its bad to do not have a part like “If a Guest declares victory once, he is not allowed to do declare his vicotry again (for the next ... days). I could simply try to declare my victory, after this proposal has been enacted. (2), (3) and (6) are easy to satisfy and if i were lucky, (1) would be true, too.

If every guest would do so, one of them would reach victory - fail. So
against

But mabye ive missunterstand the rule?

Purplebeard:

26-01-2010 19:24:23 UTC

against This seems really imbalanced in favour of Murderers and Detectives, who have much easier objectives than the rest of us.

The Detectives’ win condition also encourages all other Guests to kill/restrain them as well as the Murderers to stop them from winning, which would be absurd.

Ornithopter:

26-01-2010 19:27:38 UTC

against
per Uvthenfuv

spikebrennan:

26-01-2010 19:34:01 UTC

It’s “take one” because I figured that this was going to provoke discussion and controversy.

My thinking:

Victory by Murderers: the thematic concept here is pretty straightforward—the Murderers’ motivation to commit murder is to ruthlessly claim Lord Cartlesham’s entire estate without getting caught.  But the Murderer who thinks that he has murdered his way to victory ought to announce that he believes that he has done so, so that if he turns out to be wrong, the Detectives and other guests can take appropriate action.

Victory by Detectives: likewise, the thematic concept here is pretty straightforward—the goal of the Detectives ought to be to ensure that all of the Murderers are Arrested or killed, without the Detective having wrongfully arrested or killed anyone.  But again, the Detective who thinks that he has accomplished this ought to announce that he believes that he has done so, so that if he’s wrong, he has painted a target on himself for the Murderers.

Victory by others:  I expected some controversy here.  There ought to be some thematic way to work this into the victory condition.  I figured that making “relation to Lord Cartlesham” relevant to the victory condition would be fun since it would give more meaning to the Roles whose special power has to do with determining one’s degree of relation, and since it motivates people to try to influence the behavior of the Murderers.  The 96-hour clock is intended so that someone who tries to achieve victory by means of this part is painting a target on himself, so he would first have to take some sort of measures to ensure his own protection during the 96-hour period.  The library part is just thematic- the Ascension Address said that the reading of the will would take place in the library, so I figured that a mini-game could arise based on trying to stay in/keep someone out of the Library. 

To Uvthenfuv’s last point about “is non-dormant or asleep”; the proposal is drafted such that all of the conditions have to be met concurrently—in other words, you have to be non-dormant at the end of the 96-hour period when the Executor posts the confirmatory blog post—that’s part of the point of the 96-hour period: during that period, presumably anyone who is trying to deny you victory (and who suspects that you might be eligible to achieve victory) will try to murder you or otherwise render you dormant and therefore ineligible.

On the requirement to not be dead: it just seemed thematically obvious.  Your mileage may vary.

spikebrennan:

26-01-2010 19:37:45 UTC

Purplebeard says: “The Detectives’ win condition also encourages all other Guests to kill/restrain them as well as the Murderers to stop them from winning, which would be absurd.”

If you like, imagine that a victory by a Detective means that the assets of Lord Cartlesham’s estate will be frozen, which is not in the interest of a potential heir.

TrumanCapote:

26-01-2010 20:00:34 UTC

against

Though to be fair, some of the issues with these victory conditions are a logical extension of the set-up for the whole dynasty.

Anonyman:

26-01-2010 20:25:28 UTC

imperial

cloj63:

26-01-2010 20:54:00 UTC

I don’t see any other logical way of victory. I know it’s not that balance, but I can’t figure out how we should get over it the way the game has gone, unless by just ignore a lot a rules already implant.

I think it will be a for for me.

Nausved:

26-01-2010 21:21:17 UTC

against

alethiophile:

26-01-2010 22:05:49 UTC

against

Roujo: he/him

26-01-2010 22:55:15 UTC

against I’m in favor of a revision, though

Darknight: he/him

27-01-2010 00:14:04 UTC

against

Excalabur:

27-01-2010 03:32:09 UTC

imperial  imperial

Thrawn:

27-01-2010 03:51:31 UTC

for

Thrawn:

27-01-2010 04:14:00 UTC

for

tecslicer:

27-01-2010 16:05:48 UTC

I believe it to be a good start, but some revision and such could not hurt. against

Oze:

27-01-2010 16:13:06 UTC

against

spikebrennan:

27-01-2010 16:34:02 UTC

just asking for “revision” is not helpful—what kinds of revision are you thinking of?