Thursday, August 10, 2023

Proposal: True Dilemmas

Timed out / quorumed 3 votes to 0 with 1 unresolved DEF. Enacted by Kevan.

Adminned at 12 Aug 2023 17:37:25 UTC

In the rule “Dilemmas”, in the second bullet point of the steps for Posing a Dilemma, add the following text after the text “If the two Upsides are the same and the two Downsides are the same”:

, or if the 3rd word of the first or second Upside is the same as the 3rd word of the first or second Downside respectively,

and at the end of the same bullet point, add this text:

. Repeat this step until none of the conditions of this step apply.

The ability to Decide on an Outcome that effectively does nothing is getting dull. I think every Outcome should have some actual impact.

Also, I was struggling to word this in a way that indicated that if the Outcome is a wash, randomly re-select the Upside and Downside for that Outcome. I chose the “3rd word” wording because with all of the other clauses on several of the Downsides, it was hard to easily express explicitly what a “wash” would be. Any suggestions are welcome.

Comments

JonathanDark: he/him

10-08-2023 17:41:48 UTC

I realized that my first pass at this was causing a conflict with the “If the two Upsides are the same and the two Downsides are the same” step, so I merged it all into one step that should be repeated until none of the conditions apply.

It’s still a little weird with the “3rd word” bit. I’m not sure how else to say it.

Kevan: City he/him

10-08-2023 17:46:07 UTC

I was wondering if these cases should explicitly become the “no effect” that I’m summarising them as - because there will presumably be future cases where “Gain 1 Food then Lose 1 Food” becomes nontrivial under an Innovation that eg. doubles Food gains, and that might start getting too fiddly to write plausible narrative for.

I’d assumed that the “or do nothing” Dilemmas were as interesting to consider as any other - if you take the safe option, you’re missing out on something - but I may have some Emperor blindness.

JonathanDark: he/him

10-08-2023 19:16:13 UTC

So far, I’ve been finding the “do nothing” choices too safe, personally. Purposely choosing the other move over the safe move has seemed suboptimal so far. Plus, I feel like a Dilemma suggests higher stakes where no choice is completely safe. I respect your guidance for the dynasty theme, though, so if safe choices still fit your vision, I can stand down.

As for the narrative, I think that since Innovations will likely modify gains and losses only for the Districts that have them, it doesn’t make sense to try to write a common narrative for everyone that describes the Innovation impact. Narrating the base outcomes makes the most sense, and then each District may or may not have the Innovations to handle those Outcomes in a different way than others.

Kevan: City he/him

10-08-2023 19:34:24 UTC

I would have thought a do-nothing dilemma was still pretty high stakes in a survival setting - a player might come to painfully regret taking the easy option in Round 7 instead of taking a hit to get that 1 extra Food.

I don’t know how far the narrative can go before it snaps. I can probably narrate a base outcome for something like “Gain 1 Food then Lose 1 Food” if there’s only one Food-gain-relevant Innovation in play, but it’ll get vaguer if there are multiple ones which all have different ideas about what the act of “gain Food” means. If narrating the base outcome means offering “or nothing happens”, to which a player with Crop Rotation can then say “I gain 1 Food from Crop Rotation during the Raider Attack!”, that feels like the narrative’s not really doing its job.

Can see where this goes, anyway. I’ll completely defer to players on whether the or-nothing dilemmas are actually interesting.

lemon: she/her

11-08-2023 07:03:17 UTC

for

Kevan: City he/him

11-08-2023 07:52:37 UTC

imperial but I do feel like “Do you want 1 Food at the cost of 5 People, or not; you might really need Food later” is a perfectly true dilemma.

Josh: he/they

11-08-2023 08:14:02 UTC

imperial