Thursday, July 12, 2018

9spaceking’s game actions

9spaceking seems to be playing cards under the misunderstandings that all cards give you +1 Thaum when you play or attach them, and that the Communities list doesn’t need to be updated when a card you’ve played changes Community stats.

Play/attach actions taken by the player this dynasty are:-

  • “Apply down effect and attach Slayer to ‘Swamp’” for +1 Thaum and no list update: Corona reverted the Thaum the next day (“Sorry, but I don’t see how playing Slayer gives you Thaum?”) and updated the Communities list on 9spaceking’s behalf.
  • “play Framed on Brendan” for +1 Thaum and no list update (it’s not clear whether it was played Up or Down)
  • “apply none of the effects of Marital Ties, since they are optional” for +1 Thaum and no list update
  • “Play alliance and discard Mudling robes” for +1 Thaum and no list update (and again, neither Up nor Down specified)

Since 9spaceking has never gained any Thaum, I think they should be on 0 Thaum at this point, rather than 3, and (since their first action post-dates the 1-Thaum cost for Up effects) they cannot have played any Up effects. Are there any other ways to read this? And is it legal for other players to apply Community changes that 9spaceking failed to?

(As 9spaceking observes with Marital Ties, it’s legal for all of these Play actions to have been taken by applying neither effect and just discarding the card, so I don’t think 9spaceking is stuck in a “may not take any other dynastic action until all such steps are complete” atomic lock at this point. The action of discarding the card signalled the end of the atomic action, in each case.)

Comments

Kevan:

07-12-2018 16:15:37 UTC

Actually the Slayer attachment seems legal for someone else to fix afterwards, as attaching is a passive-voice “The card is then removed from their hand and attached to the Community in that State.” - but all the play effects are “spend 1 Thaum to apply the Up Effect of the card”. The player spending it has to do the applying.

derrick:

07-12-2018 16:35:35 UTC

I’m most interested in hearing what 9spaceking has to say in explanation. There are several ways to handle this.

9spaceking:

07-12-2018 20:08:42 UTC

the rules say that you can score a card unless the card says otherwise, and that the up effect or down effect is optional, in other words, you can play it for no effect. The rules also say you only have to spend 1 Thaum for the up effect and not for the down effect, which I used for Slayer.

derrick:

07-12-2018 20:23:05 UTC

Interesting… I’m looking at the rules. I think there is a timing exploit, but its nuanced, and the timing described above is invalid.

Playing a card is an atomic action, which means you can’t interrupt it to take any other actions, such as scoring the card. But you could theoretically interrupt scoring or attaching a card to play, attach, or score it, because scoring and attaching are not atomic actions.

At any rate, an exploit like this should be explained when its taken, not taken without explanation.

9spaceking:

07-12-2018 20:33:30 UTC

again, Scoring doesn’t say “you cannot play this card once it is out of your hand”. Think about this in real life terms: Scoring’s only requirement is that I remove it from my hand. Once I remove it from my hand, and place it onto the table, what prevents me from using the effect?

I am assuming that I can score it, play/attach it, and only then will it be impossible for myself to use. None of the rules prohibit myself from doing this.

Kevan:

07-12-2018 20:37:27 UTC

The thing that prevents you playing a card’s effect after removing it from your hand is that “A Wizard may [only] play a card which is in their hand”. A card you have removed from your hand is not in your hand.

9spaceking:

07-12-2018 20:40:54 UTC

(my mistake, I cannot play it once I remove it, but playing and then removing is another thing entirely)

9spaceking:

07-12-2018 20:41:46 UTC

alright, so maybe we could fix this by treating Slayer as if discarded for scoring and then the other cards played?

9spaceking:

07-12-2018 20:43:14 UTC

I kind of misunderstood the scoring VS playing part of the rules, haha… XP

Kevan:

07-12-2018 20:45:15 UTC

Played with no effect? You didn’t make wiki updates for any of the optional Up/Down effect actions, during the atomic actions.

Given that everyone has been playing as if these cards had had no effect, it seems fairer to count them all as having been Scored, and nothing else.

9spaceking:

07-12-2018 20:56:10 UTC

Yea, I messed up that a bit, though I still could have played alliance + Mudling for the up effect.

Kevan:

07-12-2018 21:09:12 UTC

You could have, but you didn’t. You had the opportunity to “optionally apply the Down Effect of the card”, but the Down Effect is “Discard a faction card and reduce the war rating of all communities with that faction by 1” and you did not reduce any war ratings.

Since it’s “discard and reduce” and you didn’t do both, you should have your Faction card back.