Wednesday, November 29, 2023

Proposal: Challenging Times

Timed out, 2-4 with 1 DEF. Failed by JonathanDark.

Adminned at 01 Dec 2023 14:12:35 UTC

Add a new rule named “Challenges” with the following text:

Every Heir has Resources, which is a list of zero or more of the following named Resources, defaulting to all Resources named below. Each Resource may be represented in gamestate tracking by the first letter of that Resource’s name:
* Wealth
* Alliances
* Popularity
* Religion

An Heir may Challenge any Claim gained by any other Heir by starting a Challenge Event, which is defined as follows:
* The Creation Condition for a Challenge Event is that there is no other Challenge Event that is Open and that the Challenge Event post has a post body that contains the name of the Heir being challenged and the name of one of that Heir’s Claims in which that Heir is the only one who has that Claim. Only one Heir and one Claim may be contained within the post body. The Heir who authored this Challenge Event post is known as the Challenger. The Heir whose name is mentioned in the blog post body is known as the Challenged.
* The Response Format for a Challenge Event is a comment from either the Challenger or the Challenged containing the name of a single Resource that the author of the comment has in their Resources and that has not been mentioned in any other comment by the author for this instance of the Challenge Event.
* The Ending Condition is that either at least 48 hours have passed since this instance of the Challenge Event was posted or both of the Challenged and Challenger have a valid Response for every Resource they have in their Resources.
* The Ending Action is to perform the Resolve Challenges action.

The Resolve Challenges action is an atomic action with the following steps:
* For each valid Response from the Challenger, remove the Resource in that Response from the Challenger’s Resources and decrease the Strength of the Claim by 10 in the ruleset.
* For each valid Response from the Challenged, remove the Resource in that Response from the Challenged’s Resources and increase the Strength of the Claim by 10 in the ruleset.
* For each time this combination of Challenged and Claim have been involved in a previous Challenge Event, not including this one, increase the Strength of the Claim by 10 in the ruleset.

I wanted to offer a strategic option of spending Resources to weaken someone else’s Claim Strength or defend your own, so that Claims are a little more dynamic and it’s not a forgone conclusion that the Heir with the currently-strongest Claim will achieve victory. I think it’s a little more thematic to use Resources like “Alliances” and “Popularity” to convince the court that a Claim shouldn’t be as strong as it is, thus favoring other Claims by weakening the strongest one.

Please note the mechanic that makes it harder to pile on to a single Heir and Claim with multiple Challenge Events. It’s still possible, but would require some coordination and would wipe out a lot of Resources that then couldn’t be used later.

Also note that there’s not a mechanism for an Heir to increase the Strength of a Claim outside of a Challenge. I thought about adding a way to do so by spending more Resources, but I had a hard time coming up with something balanced. I’m hoping maybe we can agree to address this separately from this Proposal.

I’m thinking that this could be combined with Aspects and Flaws to to change the amount that is increased or decreased depending on the Resource that is used, but I didn’t want to add that just yet.

Comments

SingularByte: he/him

29-11-2023 14:20:51 UTC

This feels a tad simple to exploit. If two people have the same claim as each other, they can constantly challenge that same claim on each other and push its strength higher and higher. If they coordinate, they can even lock everyone else out from being able to make challenges.

Just to also double check, is the intent that each heir has different claim strengths for the same claim, or are you altering that claim for everyone? Since I believe it currently works as the latter.

JonathanDark: he/him

29-11-2023 15:04:47 UTC

My intention was that this would alter the Claim Strength for everyone. I’ll change the Proposal to be more explicit about that.

I’ll also add a clause that the Challenger must not currently have that Claim.

JonathanDark: he/him

29-11-2023 15:46:09 UTC

Should be fixed now. Let me know if there are any other issues.

Josh: he/they

29-11-2023 16:07:27 UTC

Once again we’re mining the same seam! At least this time I think there’s room for both.

JonathanDark: he/him

29-11-2023 16:49:27 UTC

Agreed. In fact, I think our ideas are complimentary. Mine is an explicit altering of Claim strengths through direct “combat”, while yours is a more subtle influence of altering Claim strengths. I think the combination of both will keep the set of Claims quite lively.

Desertfrog: Jury

29-11-2023 17:23:47 UTC

If we’ll have Claims that multiple Heirs can have simultaneously (Such as the ones proposed in Thou is Spouseless), changing the strength for everyone might be a problem as only the challenged is able to protect the claim

JonathanDark: he/him

29-11-2023 17:46:11 UTC

Good point. I just changed it so that a Claim can only be challenged if only one Heir has it.

We may want to enable Challenges for Claims owned by multiple Heirs, but that feels like a complication for a later Proposal.

4st:

29-11-2023 19:37:51 UTC

imperial Too long, didn’t read. I’ll read it if it passes! Vovix, the reading I shunt unto thee

Kevan: he/him

29-11-2023 19:51:13 UTC

Seems like a roundabout way of saying “at any time, with some exceptions, pay 1 Resource to increase or decrease the Strength of a Claim”. And while the 10-per-repeat mechanic makes it harder to pile onto somebody, it also makes it easier to boost an ally.

against although only mildly.

JonathanDark: he/him

29-11-2023 20:08:17 UTC

That’s fair. If everyone was in favor of a simplified version of this that worked as you mentioned, I wouldn’t be upset by it and would re-propose it as such.

Let’s see where the votes fall.

Clucky: he/him

29-11-2023 20:27:17 UTC

1) I’m not sure “The Creation Condition for a Challenge Event is…” means the same thing as “Challenge events cannot be posted if the creation condition is not met”

2) As far as I’m aware, you can offer up the same resource in multiple different open challenge posts, which will then break future challenge resolutions as that atomic action cannot be performed.

I also think its weird that this effects the strength of the claim for everyone. Feel like even if you don’t currently have a claim, you might want a stake in what happens to its strength.

So as I’m soft on the idea as a whole, and it has a few bugs, I think I’m against

Josh: he/they

29-11-2023 20:37:44 UTC

for

JonathanDark: he/him

29-11-2023 21:15:56 UTC

@Clucky: the Challenge Event is an Event as defined in the Special Case section of the ruleset. Per those rules, the Creation Condition is defined as the explicit requirement for creating the event. Related to that, the Creation Condition is that no other Challenge Event is Open, which prevents anyone committing the same Resource to different Challenge Events.

Clucky: he/him

29-11-2023 21:33:27 UTC

Oh in that case, I think its rather unclear how it parses


Seems like you intended

“(no other Challenge Event that is Open) and (that the Challenge Event post [the one being made] has a post body that contains the name of the Heir being challenged and the name of one of that Heir’s Claims in which that Heir is the only one who has that Claim)”

I read it as

“no other Challenge Event that is (Open and that the Challenge Event post [the one that is open] has a post body that contains the name of the Heir being challenged and the name of one of that Heir’s Claims in which that Heir is the only one who has that Claim)”

but if you limit it to only one being up at a time, I’m even less of a fan because this creates time pressure to be online right when a challenge resolves so that you can post the next one

SingularByte: he/him

29-11-2023 22:09:07 UTC

I think the most worrying part for me is how easy it is for a pair of allies to monopolise and exploit the system. I like the idea though.
against

JonathanDark: he/him

29-11-2023 23:47:08 UTC

If this fails, I’ll probably go with Kevan’s suggestion for a more simplistic “spend a Resource to increase or decrease a Claim’s Strength by X”.

Desertfrog: Jury

01-12-2023 05:34:59 UTC

against in favour of Influencers