Thursday, August 19, 2021

Proposal: Machine Delivery

Self-killed. Failed by Kevan.

Adminned at 20 Aug 2021 15:04:37 UTC

Add some Machines:-

Bandsaw
* Cost: one Box with a value of 2 or more
* Effect: Gain a Thing called Plank, and a Box with a value one less than that of the Box used to activate this machine.

Expander
* Cost: one Box
* Effect: Gain a Box containing a value one higher than the Box used to activate this Machine.

Compressor
* Cost: one Thing
* Effect: Lose all Things, then gain a Thing called Diamond.

Simulator
* Cost: five Cogs
* Effect: Apply the effect of any Machine as if this Machine had that effect. (An effect that refers to the Boxes or Things used to activate the Machine, or which is the effect of the Chime Machine, may not be chosen here.)

Comments

Trapdoorspyder: he/him

19-08-2021 14:59:08 UTC

for Seems good to me. I will add, is it necessary for the wording to specify where the machines are being added? If so, this proposal needs a rework, as theoretically at this point it time the machines could be added anywhere in the ruleset, if it does need to be more specific.

Kevan: City he/him

19-08-2021 15:04:33 UTC

Ah, that was placeholder that I forgot to go back and write properly. Strong argument that “a Machine” can only exist in one place in the ruleset, though - “The list of available types of Machine (which any Worker can arrange in alphabetical order, if it is not already) is as follows:”

ais523:

19-08-2021 15:40:59 UTC

Simulator looks like the most potentially broken machine here, so running through the possible effects:

Axe, Chime, Clink, Compactor, Glue Gun, Greenhouse, Printer, Prototyper, Storage: cannot be chosen. (I assume there isn’t a wording exploit along the lines of “I didn’t choose the effect of the Chime machine, I chose the Chime machine itself and used its effect”. I know I’d vote down any DoV that tried to rely on that, and I hope other people would too.)
Baker, Harvester, Mill, Seeder, Sugarcuber: cost less than five Cogs naturally, so no obvious abuses possible here.
Crusher: this is interesting – it can legally be chosen, but it’s unclear what would happen if you did.
Dustsheet: effectively lets you buy a Clink for ten Cogs (rather than the usual one Box). This is something you couldn’t do otherwise, but doesn’t seem particularly overpowered.
Press, Spin: lets you pay five Cogs rather than one Energy to generate a Box. This is a little concerning to me, because it seems as though it might be a useful way to take advantage of a hypothetical infinite-Cog scam.
Wastebin: lets you pay five Cogs rather than one Energy to generate four Things (that don’t activate Chime). Doesn’t seem all that powerful.

So if there’s a scam in that machine, it’s either something to do with some argument about what happens if you choose Crusher, or else it’s a way to use it as part of the payoff of an infinite-Cog scam.

I do see one other potential exploit, but I’m going to save that one for myself.

Clucky: he/him

19-08-2021 17:18:30 UTC

against

This lets people get with a simulator and a bunch of cogs to easily get lots of prototypes. (Can get 1 prototype per 10 cogs, twice per slot). Feels a bit too strong in that regard.

Bucky:

19-08-2021 18:22:38 UTC

against

Contra ais523, Simulator CAN choose Prototyper, since their effects do not refer to the boxes in their costs. Chime is specifically forbidden. This is strictly better than using an actual Prototyper once one has four or more Prototypes.

ais523:

19-08-2021 20:40:23 UTC

against Good catch, Clucky/Bucky – Prototyper does indeed refer to boxes only in its cost, not in its effect, so it can be Simulated.

Simulator is therefore clearly too strong.

Trapdoorspyder: he/him

19-08-2021 23:40:56 UTC

against I need to get better at reading the potential of proposals.

Kevan: City he/him

20-08-2021 15:04:08 UTC

against Self-kill to keep the conveyor belt moving.