Wednesday, April 27, 2022

Proposal: Nothing But The Truth [Core]

Timed out and failed, 2-3. Josh

Adminned at 29 Apr 2022 09:12:11 UTC

Replace the first sentence of the second paragraph of “Victory and Ascension” with:-

When casting a vote on a DoV, that vote must truthfully reflect the voter’s belief as to whether the poster has legally achieved victory in the current Dynasty.

Raising the Bar makes it clearer to readers of the ruleset that DoV votes of “didn’t technically work but I don’t mind” are valid. Perhaps we should consider actually changing that - requiring DoV votes to have the same level of “belief” as the DoV itself, at the time of casting, doesn’t seem an unreasonable bedrock.


Josh: he/they

27-04-2022 08:45:00 UTC

Eh, I don’t know… We get into murky territory when we start having to prove peoples’ states of mind.

I guess this just entrenches the (perceived) status quo ante, so it is unlikely to have a very malign effect. But I think my reflexive preference is for a slightly looser set of rules around this.

Kevan: he/him

27-04-2022 09:00:30 UTC

We’re already there with the posting of a DoV requiring the poster to believe that they’ve won. It seems okay to me for DoV posts and votes to both exist in the same, higher plane, where we step outside of the tactical game and take a genuine poll on what just happened.

Josh: he/they

27-04-2022 09:14:02 UTC

“Okay” is exactly what it seems!

As noted, Raising the Bar changes the status quo and it’s a change that I like.

Just taking a bit of a historical deep dive, the current wording around votes having to reflect a genuine belief in the victory of the poster dates back to 2006. It looks like it came in as part of a package of changes due to Bucky issuing an apparently insincere DoV, but the change to the mens rea of the vote was uncommented on at the time. Prior to this change, the test was that players should “respond to the Declaration of Victory saying whether [they regard] it as legal or illegal”.

So this isn’t an eternal and unchanging bit on BlogNomic, although it is a very old one.

Josh: he/they

27-04-2022 15:53:38 UTC



27-04-2022 17:07:40 UTC


Darknight: he/him

27-04-2022 20:56:24 UTC


Raven1207: he/him

28-04-2022 05:11:40 UTC


Kevan: he/him

28-04-2022 08:40:39 UTC

In what situations is it desirable or useful for a player to vote FOR a DoV that they agree didn’t technically work, or AGAINST one that they think did?

Is it just having the option to legally vote “close enough” on a DoV that overlooked something minor?

Josh: he/they

28-04-2022 09:38:15 UTC

That’s one use case, sure.

For whatever reason, I’m currently looking at a blognomic that seems, however temporarily, to be dominated by what I call the “nod-along” approach - players who don’t propose, vote with the majority, rarely make impactful arguments on direction, rarely take dynastic actions, aren’t either competitive to win or shaping the long-term discourse of the game. I guess that’s an inevitable corollary of the world reopening - the increase in competitiveness over lockdown was perhaps the actual diversion from the norm.

That’s a slightly depressing read on where we are, perhaps, but also: it’s now been, what, five or six dynasties since we had one that was actually competitive, as in, more than one player at the end of the dynasty who was actively trying to win?

There isn’t a solution to that, other than “wait for the wheel to turn”, but making it slightly easier to tap out of uncompetitive games will hopefully speed up the wheel, increaseing the number of entry points for new or returning competitive players. That’s my theory, anyway.

Kevan: he/him

28-04-2022 12:19:03 UTC

I think we might be seeing a different angle on the old, dormant dynasties of 2015-16, except instead of a round dwindling to two actual players (where the problem is then obviously perceived as “not enough players”), it dwindles to six or seven, with only two actually playing (and the problem is less obvious).

And that reopens the strategy that low-player dynasties had prior to the Dormancy rule: that if you can make everyone else bored with the dynasty, and have a plausible claim at being ahead on gamestate, you win. Speeding that wheel by making it even easier for a group to say “yes we are bored with this dynasty” risks just amplifying that.

Josh: he/they

28-04-2022 12:53:44 UTC

Yeah, okay, having thought about it a bit, I’m convinced.  for I think I’d probably encourage going a little further even than this, though; maybe a thought for the dormancy rework proposal.