Monday, January 06, 2025

Noting a disagreement

Something happened that probably needs more publicity than a couple of wiki history entries and a comment in the current Race, so I’m making a post to explain.

JonathanDark attempted to Spot Danger (bringing the Danger Level to 4), then activate a Stomp Rocket for 96, presumably under an interpretation where multiple copies of the same item apply the passive multiple times. The action doesn’t actually do that with either of the main interpretations of the rules, though:
- I think the correct interpretation of “Items may also have Passive effects, which apply to all Snails who have that Item in their Items.” in the Official Ruleset is that if a Snail has multiple copies of the same Item, the Passive effect only applies once (because the rule seems to check to see if at least one copy of the item is held). Several Passive Effects are clearly designed to use this interpretation, e.g. otherwise a set of Reverse Rockets would all fire simultaneously if you got eaten once.
- In particular, Flashy Shell Wrap doesn’t work correctly under JonathanDark’s interpretation; Josh’s 4 Flashy Shell Wraps would, under that interpretation, have caused four Spot Danger actions whenever Josh’s Plays increased by 2. In that situation, the Danger Level would actually be 9 prior to JonathanDark’s actions rather than 3, so the attempt to Spot Danger failed, and in any case the distance moved wouldn’t be 96. However, Josh used my interpretation when resolving his actions earlier; if my interpretation is incorrect then Josh’s actions would not have been resolved properly, and the real gamestate would look quite different from the tracker, depending on just how much of his actions were valid.

JonathanDark didn’t update other Snails’ Rocket Fuel as part of the actions. I’ve updated it assuming that only one copy of the passive fires even if you have multiple items. Under JonathanDark’s interpretation, GetPunnedOn would have substantially more Rocket Fuel (and probably I would do, depending on just how much of Josh’s actions were legal), so if we decide that that interpretation is correct, that’s another part of the gamestate that would need correcting.

This isn’t a CFJ because I think I’ve fixed things with a wiki update, but it seems likely to cause controversy, so it’s worth explaining what happened in case a dispute arises (and to invite opinions about which of us has read the Official Ruleset correctly).

(A link to the Race 4 post for convenience, because it’s dropped off the front page: Race 4)

Comments

ais523:

06-01-2025 02:49:42 UTC

Just going over the items that act differently in multiples between the two interpretations:
- Reverse Rocket: my interpretation: one is used when you are eaten; alternate interpretation: all are used when you are eaten (making them useless in multiples, which makes it odd that JonathanDark ordered multiples)
- Flashy Shell Wrap: my interpretation: W Shell Wraps add W Fame and force Spot Danger every 6-W Plays; alternate interpretation: W Shell Wraps add W×W Fame and force W Spot Dangers every 6-W Plays
- Rockets: my interpretation: gain fuel once per rocket-triggering event; alternate interpretation: gain fuel once per rocket per rocket-triggering event.

JonathanDark: you seem to use my interpretation for some items but the alternate interpretation for others; what in the ruleset causes such a distinction to be made?

CyberStella:

06-01-2025 23:04:36 UTC

I am confused

Josh: he/they

06-01-2025 23:16:04 UTC

@Stella Your mentor should be able to talk you through it!

The concise version is that JonathanDark and ais are disagreeing over the permissability of an interpretation that would allow JonathanDark to finish in one move, but which would also (possibly, maybe, arguably) have some knock-on implications elsewhere in the ruleset, including maybe invalidating a chunk of the gameplay that led up to it.

The longer version is, well, up there.

Nomic is sometimes as much a game about legal wrangling as it is about playing a game, I’m afraid!

ais523:

06-01-2025 23:18:15 UTC

A summary: JonathanDark and I disagree on what happens to someone with multiple Stomp Rockets when someone Spots Danger, and this post is me trying to analyse the ruleset to explain why I think my interpretation is correct.

Resolving what actually happened is fairly important because a) it likely determines the result of the current race and b) some of the earlier actions in the race are invalid under some interpretations.

ais523:

06-01-2025 23:21:40 UTC

And yes, one thing that happens a lot in nomic is that a rule gets written unclearly, and then people aren’t entirely sure what it means – we’re playing a game and playtesting it at the same time, and if we find issues in the rules, sometimes they can be scammed for a huge advantage, or sometimes they just leave everyone confused about what to do next. It’s hard to get rules correct without testing them, and we create new rules quite frequently, so it’s quite common to find issues in the ruleset.

JonathanDark: he/him

06-01-2025 23:50:52 UTC

Ok, in the interest of not gumming things up and making an already messy ruleset worse, I’ll yield on this to ais’s interpretation. It’s not worth it to me to try to reconstruct the past dynastic actions just to make my worldview fit in a CfJ.

The examples were definitely helpful to making my decision, so I appreciate the time ais spent illustrating it.

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