Friday, April 27, 2018

Declaration of Victory: One Impossible Thing

Timed out 1 vote to 2 after 48 hours. Failed by Kevan.

Adminned at 29 Apr 2018 19:20:27 UTC

Per “Unnamed Rule”, I have made “a blog post with the Super Treasure” and was the first to do so.

Comments

Cuddlebeam:

04-27-2018 15:04:26 UTC

This was posted after I did my two blogposts (I could’ve legally done them regardless though, but just in case its relevant).

Cuddlebeam:

04-27-2018 15:35:57 UTC

If this is a DoV I should probably vote. imperial

Cuddlebeam:

04-27-2018 15:43:47 UTC

Oh wait. You unidled at 14:45.


And you attempted to assign Nativity before then, at 14:41, but you weren’t a Pawn back then.

You don’t have a Nativity yet, and therefore, cannot perform dynastic actions.

“Achieving victory” is a dynastic action, and you couldn’t have done it yet.

So against

Kevan: HE/HIM

04-27-2018 15:57:38 UTC

No, I unidled myself before assigning all my stats. That comment was just a vote I made a few minutes later. (“Admins who are unidling themselves should, in their first vote following each unidling, highlight their changed idle status and any changes to quorum to have come about as a result of it.”)

Cuddlebeam:

04-27-2018 16:04:09 UTC

Oh. I can’t tell at what time you unidled then.

Anyways, the vote still stands due to your own argument against this thing.

Kevan: HE/HIM

04-27-2018 16:05:47 UTC

My what?

Cuddlebeam:

04-27-2018 16:14:54 UTC

This thing:

“I should add that I think the Super Treasure is an infinitely long string of zeroes followed by the string “ Super Treasure..”

And then the added stuff you mentioned that supports it and whatnot.

If a whitespace was considered to precede A for alphabetical ordering (which I don’t think it would), ” AaaSuper Treasure.” would still appear in the dictionary ahead of ” Super Treasure.”

etc

pokes:

04-27-2018 16:18:25 UTC

I don’t think the default Super Treasure exists for the same reason the smallest real number larger than zero doesn’t exist. Adapting an argument: for any proposed default Super Treasure string X, “0X” is an even more default Super Treasure. (or replace 0 with space, if inclined)

Anyway, not voting, am idle. Just kibbutzing.

Kevan: HE/HIM

04-27-2018 16:19:15 UTC

That’s referring to a single whitespace character, not an infinite number of them.

Cuddlebeam:

04-27-2018 16:20:28 UTC

If anything we’ve had a small burst of activity at least.

card:

04-27-2018 17:08:03 UTC

against
As per Unnamed Rule
1. The treasure is a string hidden by at least one of the Kings in those various places. I have not hidden one anywhere yet so unless Diabecko has hidden one nobody can yet achieve victory.
2. Unnamed Rule doesn’t say “The ... Treasure is the following text string:” but it merely contains at least that string. So I could hide some S-Treasure and it could have more than said text.

Kevan: HE/HIM

04-27-2018 17:18:12 UTC

The full rule text is “The Super Treasure is a text string which shall be hidden by the Kings”, not “is a string hidden”. The Treasure exists before you hide it, and your hiding it doesn’t change its nature. (The victory condition doesn’t even require us to find where you hid it, it just says to “make a blog post with the Super Treasure”.)

The Super Treasure is an unknown string and the rule gives us a partial definition of its contents. Its default starting value can, I believe, be established from the glossary, the same way we’d be able to fix any carelessly undefined variable.

You couldn’t hide some other string and make that the Super Treasure, as there’s nothing in the rule to say that a King gets to choose what the Super Treasure string is, merely that it exists and you are encouraged to hide it.

card:

04-27-2018 17:30:57 UTC

So then it’s some string that nobody knows the full contents of? The way it’s defined it could be infinite and therefore nobody would be able to post it to the blog, even if we’re including the Null character https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_character which comes first when alphabetically sorted, it still takes up space.

Kevan: HE/HIM

04-27-2018 19:03:01 UTC

Given that the glossary explicitly and only clarifies numerals in addition to letters of the alphabet, it seemed fair to limit it to that range when deciding what the earliest entries in the BlogNomic dictionary would be.

Cpt_Koen:

04-27-2018 23:37:36 UTC

“An Orphan Variable is a dynastic gamestate variable which has neither a location in which it’s tracked, nor a manner in which it it can be determined from other gamestate variables, specified in the Ruleset.

A Pawn may not take any dynastic actions that are contingent on the specific value of an Orphan Variable. “

Isn’t the Super Treasure an Orphan Variable, then? If that is so, a Pawn may not achieve victory in this way.

card:

04-28-2018 04:27:07 UTC

%Kevan% I don’t agree, people have used punctuation and whitespace before when using phrases like “the string/text” in rules, so there’s not really a precedent to leaving out any of the ascii table when considering what comes alphabetically first. I think this should warrant a change to explicitly state something more limited, I wouldn’t want some boring scam about posting null characters to remain valid.

*Cpt_Koen* Interesting, so far we’ve had the convention that anything which is tracked explicitly states where it’s tracked using one of the words “tracked” or “tracks”. It’s not determined through any other variables so I suppose the treasure is an Orphan Variable. Posting a DoV isn’t a Dynastic action; however as determined many dynasties back achieving victory itself is a Dynastic action. That would also make the blogposts titled “I found the Treasure!” illegal.

Kevan: HE/HIM

04-28-2018 10:25:10 UTC

[card] I’d have thought common English interpretation of “alphabetical order” would restrict it to letters of the alphabet. That the glossary talks in terms of also considering the digits 0-9 in addition to A-Z suggests that we don’t need to worry about whether a squiggly bracket would be sorted before or after an emoji pineapple - we just look at the letters and numbers.

[Koen] I’d say that the Super Treasure’s value was effectively being tracked in that rule (since it can’t be changed), and can be determined from other gamestate (the text of that rule). We’d be in trouble if there was an additional clause of “a King may change the Super Treasure”, but there’s nothing like that in the rule.

card:

04-28-2018 14:17:01 UTC

[Kevan] I would think the opposite because that ordering is commonly used to sort papers, books and essays whose titles can contain punctuation or characters not in the standard Latin alphabet. Here’s an example of one organization making a standard for alphabetical order that takes into account those other characters https://www.niso.org/sites/default/files/2017-08/tr03.pdf

Cuddlebeam:

04-28-2018 15:26:33 UTC

[card] I didn’t know any of that, curious. Also, there’s a goddamn tree emoji in there lol

Kevan: HE/HIM

04-28-2018 15:30:51 UTC

Interesting, we should probably pick a standard like that and adopt it. Although that one does shrug “Symbols other than numerals and letters do not have a universally known and agreed-upon order.” when it comes to comparing symbols to one another.

card:

04-29-2018 04:07:13 UTC

[Cuddlebeam] Interesting note there, the “X” in Xmas is actually a Greek χ (Chi) and is an old abbreviation for Christ, which is why in the image that standard expands it to Christmas. Also emojis are becoming very popular so they might come up in more recent publications, at the very least it’s likely to make it into the title of papers written specifically about emojis.

[Kevan] Sure they’re not agreed upon but that doesn’t imply they’re completely ignored; it would make perfect sense to choose an ampersand to be sorted as if it were the word ‘and’ in one context, it is a ligature derived from manuscripts using the Latin word for and (et) after all, and in other contexts to sort it a different way.