Friday, July 30, 2021

Proposal: The Order of Vampires

Vetoed. Josh

Adminned at 01 Aug 2021 20:26:54 UTC

Enact a new dynastic rule, “The Scoreboard”:-

The Scoreboard is a list of all Vampire Lords in descending order of how many Blood Mana Crystals they hold, with ties broken in favour of whichever tied Lord has the higher Influence (and ties of that broken in favour of higher Puissance, with ties beyond that not being broken). When the dynasty ends, the Scoreboard should be recorded somewhere.

Idle Vampire Lords are considered to be Vampire Lords for the purpose of this rule, if they were active at any time during the dynasty.

Per today’s earlier discussion on Slack, suggesting trying out a rule for ranking players at the end of this dynasty, with an eye to maybe doing the same for future ones. We could just calculate this informally - there was some talk of it being obvious that Influence was the natural choice of tiebreaker - but to be fair it should really go through the proposal mill.


Josh: he/they

30-07-2021 15:02:33 UTC

The discussion indicated that there was not a conformity of views on what this would be for, and I strongly object to some of the proposed applications; given that I can’t predict or control the outcome of that I’d prefer to vote against and see what happens informally rather than let this get a toehold in the ruleset.

Kevan: City he/him

30-07-2021 15:23:43 UTC

Oh, I definitely share your concerns there, and will fight alongside you against anything like this overruling cabal behaviour or awarding sympathy victories to lower-ranking players.

I think small, incremental proposals are more likely to arrive at a clear conformity of views, than a tangled thread of Slack discussions between whoever’s online at that moment.

And I thought it might be useful to formally agree a ranking for this dynasty before we left it, rather than looking back at it next week on the slightly shakier ground of “well, if we had agreed a ranking I reckon we’d have used BMC with Influence as a tiebreaker”, if we’re trying to think about this.

Josh: he/they

30-07-2021 15:26:15 UTC

I think I also have a mild concern that, in a dynasty where do much was rng- or luck-based, it’s possible to over-interpret position

Clucky: he/him

30-07-2021 15:31:05 UTC

do we not already formally archive old gamestate tracking pages? seems like we should

Brendan: he/him

30-07-2021 15:31:48 UTC


Josh: he/they

30-07-2021 16:01:33 UTC

@Clucky Sooooort ooooof? We have

The historical fact of the occurrence of a defined game action is itself considered to be gamestate, tracked in the history of whatever resource is used to track the gamestate modified by that action

Which maybe just about gives weight to the argument that old gamestate remains gamestate in some archival sense, but I’m not 100% sure that would fly… For the most part it’s just done socially.


30-07-2021 16:05:43 UTC

We keep old gamestate pages around on the wiki – there’s no reason to remove them and it can be interesting to refer back to them.

They don’t have any legal / rules force, but as this proposal is creating a dynastic rule, it won’t create something that ruleswise/legalistically survives the dynasty either.


30-07-2021 16:51:30 UTC

Oh, I just noticed a bug in this: idle Vampire Lords will be at the bottom of the scoreboard, because they don’t actually have current statistics for Blood Mana Crystals, Influence, Puissance, etc. (their statistics are restored when they unidle, but don’t exist while they’re idle).

Lulu: she/her

30-07-2021 17:45:48 UTC


Raven1207: he/they

30-07-2021 18:15:31 UTC


Clucky: he/him

30-07-2021 18:56:24 UTC

I guess I just sorta don’t see the point? Seems like we’re already tracking this information.

Kevan: City he/him

30-07-2021 19:03:51 UTC

It means that the dynastic history page can give a final scoreboard ranking, as agreed by its players. Right now, we don’t do that, and if we wanted to do it informally, it would be a judgement call by whoever wrote the history page about how to actually score it.

If we look back at the Gallery of your dynasty, we know from his ascension that Josh won, but does that mean “most Kudos” was a fair measure of how well everyone else was doing at that point, or is there more to it than that? (I can’t even remember myself.)

Clucky: he/him

30-07-2021 19:08:26 UTC

sure I guess that makes some sense. But I’m a bit hesitent about “recorded somewhere” works, and if we really need this or if someone couldn’t go in and sort the gallery page by Kudos.

Kevan: City he/him

30-07-2021 19:24:32 UTC

That’s the question - even in quite a simple situation where we can see that it was “most Kudos wins”, is it fair to ignore the other stats and declare that Jason came out ahead of Pokes and Lemonfanta? Or is it possible that the Cash stat so important that Jason was actually in second place? Should Raven’s valuable art Collection make a difference?

The best people to answer those questions are the players of that game, and since they’d likely disagree on the details if you asked them now, the fairest way to ask is to ask them to pick a scoring metric early in their dynasty. (This proposal is, as Ais has said elsewhere, a bit late in this one, but it’s better than nothing, and mostly just to make the discussion more concrete.)

Clucky: he/him

30-07-2021 20:44:09 UTC

i think picking a scoring mechanic early in a dynasty is potentially dangerous. there are times when it works, but a nice thing about nomic is the ability to audible as the dynasty progresses isn’t of being locked into rules early on. (also many dynasties don’t have a scoring mechanic)

overall I feel like this isn’t necessary but also is harmless so might as wlel for

Kevan: City he/him

30-07-2021 21:32:44 UTC

I guess the best time to pick a scoring mechanic is probably the same time as enacting a victory condition.


30-07-2021 21:44:55 UTC

against I don’t think this works as a dynastic rule.

lemon: she/her

31-07-2021 01:06:14 UTC


Josh: he/they

31-07-2021 09:09:47 UTC

veto This will make no sense in the new dynasty; probably best to re-up it for the new ruleset.