“Can’t never”. Bleh.

I still prefer aguydude’s version, but it looks like the necessary changes have been made.

I love ur dedication, but I think you’re being too harsh on any new/unidling players, as i dont see how it would be fair to barely give them a chance by letting them only use zombies to “steal” a plot. I think that new players should still receive a plot

I feel obligated to be against a proposal that is immediately going to repeal my own proposal if it passes.

You cannot make it right, Ely, they will always find something. :-/

mideg: No, we just like aguydude’s idea better because it’s more fair to everyone.

Yoda:

aguydude’s idea is basically this gone not so far.

That’s valid, of course.

But it is sad to see how Ely does everything you ask for, even regards for your concern to treat Newbies equal to Unidlers and “you” (meaning not (only) you personally, of course) still find ‘new’ problems not named (in this clarity) before.

And speaking of fair: A newbie has no chance whats’o'ever in this Dynasty even if he starts with an empty plot. Giving him 40 Juice per week might even make his odds of catching up better, since he can get an established Plot.

A newbie or a long-time-idler comes.

aguy’s: He gets an empty Plot, 200 Sun and has to survive the zombie of all the Defeated players that will come as flies on a corpse. Good luck. Or, he unidles as one of the few undefeated, Zombies don’t have time to Overrun his Plot before everyone else’s, he wins the dynasty.

mine: He joins the Zombies, makes life harder for everyone else and if he does it right, he gets a not really bad Plot and 200 Sun. He has chances, but he must play them well.

mideg: I appreciate that this proposal is much better than the earlier versions and that most kinks have been worked out now, but that doesn’t mean I have to like the idea behind it. In fact, I’m lukewarm towards it, but I still prefer aguydude’s.

Ely: Honestly, that rhetoric is far from watertight. Compare it with the following (if this passes):

Perspective new player: “Hey, look at this nomic’s cool ruleset! You can plant stuff and cultivate a small vegetable plot here. Can’t wait to join in! Wait, what’s this? New players can only make zombies? That means I could only make use of about a fifth of the dynastic rules!”

Purplebeard:

Oh yeah, and currently it is much better:
“Look, this nomic is all about zombies and ghules and so on. Wait, new players start with 100 Sun only? That means that I can only make use of about a fifth of the dynastic rules!”

In both cases one has to achieve some ingame, well, achievments, in order to make use of some of the dynastic rules. (1st case: Use planting to gain Wood, then Juice, then start Zombie action, 2nd case: Use Juice to get Plot, then start Planting action.)

If u are consistent with criticizing the fact that only part of the rules are ‘usable’ for new players, the u should vote for decreasing the cost for everything to zero. Of course, that would not be much fun, as there would not be much to achieve anymore.

What I do not like about this is the way every time Ely corrected some mistakes, someone would point out new ones (that were there before, but not pointed out). Of course, everyone is free to be in favor or opposed to this (or any) proposal, but the way it has been handled here was far from being constructive. I do not know if there is a back story with Ely going on here, but I would not be surprised if there were.

New players can currently get access to any Zombie, Crop or Construction within their second week, though, whereas 40 Juice won’t get you anywhere near the House of a competent Farmer (who is active).

As for the flaws that were pointed out: surely you don’t believe that some Farmer deliberately failed to mention some flaws they noticed just so that they could use them to shout the next version down? Some mistakes are only seen at a second or third glance, and some mentioned flaws of earlier versions may not be adequately fixed to one’s liking, even though the proposer may believe so.

I don’t think anyone here has anything against Ely, for what it’s worth, and I don’t see any ‘mistakes’ pointed out in these comments. Some of us just don’t like the idea, or some of the choices Ely made.

By the second week, namely 80 Juice, I can have 4 Bombies and 2 Ghouls, half of which will have Shambled 14 times, the other half 7 times. I will skip some of their shamblings to spawn them all in two rows and start this scheme right after the owner of the plot has harvested and spend most of their Sun. (Which happens.) Other combinations are probably more effective (1 Bombie to lower defense, several Carcasses to move in, maybe combined with some Wanderers as cannon fodder), but I am pretty sure that by the second week or not that long thereafter I am the proud owner of a build plot (missing to rows, oh well).

I could also go with 26 Wanderers, but that would devastate my soon to be plot. :-)

I will leave this discussion for now, though. Maybe I have convinced some bystanders of the fairness of this Proposal, though. :-)

Thanks mideg for your support, I can assure you that there’s no back story with PPB or anyone else here :)
This is the first Dynasty I actually play to win, (or well, not just for the fun of inventing rules) and inevitably some opinions will crash with each other.
I can’t say much more to promote this proposal than what it’s already been said.
I’d like to ask instead:
How many of you would vote if all the zombies on a Overrun Plot would get destroyed?

Ely: With aguydude’s proposal, new players start with a Defeated of 1.  The difference is that they can plant whatever they want while not having to worry about invading zombies, as overrunning their plot will have no benefit (besides points, which are getting phased out at this point anyways).

mideg: We have nothing against Ely as a person.  This is just the way nomics work.  As PB said, we see things that we did not see the first time or that were not fixed sufficiently or were not fixed at all.  It’s all a part of the proposal process.

From what I understand of nomic history, there are 2 main ways to deal with proposals.  The first is a wysiwyg way where the proposal takes effect as it is proposal.  The second is a set-up that allows other proposed amendments to the proposal while the proposal is still pending.

The reason we do the first way here is because it is more suited to a blog-style of presentation, whereas the second is more suited to play-by-mail, live games, etc.

As a result, proposals as massive as this one can quickly get shot down because of one issue.  It’s just the way it works.  Yes, we can always make another proposal that makes a fix, but that requires another proposal slot and good timing (usually should be directly after the proposal it fixes).