Sunday, August 15, 2021

Proposal: Widgets and Wordings

Timed out 2 votes to 4. Failed by Kevan.

Adminned at 17 Aug 2021 17:34:49 UTC

Add the following sentence to “Machines” after “A Worker may Activate a Cold or Warm Machine they have by paying its costs, setting its heat to Hot, and executing its effects.”:

Everything gained as a result of Activating a Machine is known as the Output of that Activation.

Add the following sentence before the list of available Widgets:

An Effect may refer to the Machine the widget is attached to as the Host Machine.

Replace all instances of “the Machine this Widget is Attached to” with “the Host Machine”

In “Widgets”, replace “Any Worker may Attach a new Widget to one of the Machines they have ” with “Any Worker may Attach a new Widget to a Cold Machine they have”

Add the following to the list of available Widgets:

Solar Panel
Cost: 10 Cogs
Effect: The Host Machine no longer costs Energy to Activate (all other costs must still be paid).

Recycler
Cost: 10 Cogs
Effect: Whenever a box is paid to Activate the Host Machine, gain a box with equal value.

Struts
Cost: 10 Cogs
Effect: The Host Machine does not count towards the limit on the number of Machines in the owner’s Line. It is still considered to be in the Line for all other purposes.


Really Long Pipe
Cost: 5 Cogs
Effect: Whenever you activate the Host Machine, do not gain any of its Output. Instead, record the Output in parentheses after the name of this Widget. At the start of the next Cycle, you gain the Output that was recorded, and delete the contents of the parentheses.

Gearbox:
Cost: 5 Cogs
Effect: Whenever you activate the Host machine, if the Output contains one or more Cogs, gain two additional Cogs.

Fabricator
Cost: 5 Cogs
Effect: Whenever you activate the Host machine, if the Output contains one or more Things, gain one additional Thing of a type that is present in the Output.

If the majority of the EVCs on this proposal contain the word “refund”, replace

If a Worker would Attach a Widget to one of the Machines they have that already has a Widget Attached to it, that Worker first removes the already existing Widget from that Machine, then adds the new Widget in the previous Widget’s place.

with

If a Worker would Attach a Widget to one of the Machines they have that already has a Widget Attached to it, that Worker first removes the already existing Widget from that Machine, gains half of its cost (rounded down), then adds the new Widget in the previous Widget’s place.

Let’s get some more Widget options in here! Adds a variety of new Widgets, as well as keywording some terms to make Widgets effects clearer. And finally, since the list of Widgets is growing this much, has an optional rider to make replacing Widgets slightly less painful for those who initially committed to one of the first ones.

Open to feedback, especially on costs. I was basing them on the costs of the original Widgets, with a baseline of “5 for a production-boosting Widget, 10 for a Widget that raises one of the basic limits (space, activations, Energy, etc.), but feel free to suggest better ones on anything that feels over/under-priced.

EDIT: Fabricator no longer generates arbitrary Things, Really Long Pipe no longer ambiguous as to how to use it or whether you can use it more than once.
EDIT 2: Added a “cold machines only” stipulation to attaching Widgets, to prevent Struts being used to move already-run machines out of the way, as well as any other potential shenanigans with attaching/removing a Widget after activation.

Comments

ais523:

15-08-2021 17:39:39 UTC

Fabricator lets you create arbitrary Things. (There are a number of people who have been concerned about / looking for arbitrary-Thing scams, and this seems to be one of them.)

ais523:

15-08-2021 17:40:29 UTC

Also, Really Long Pipe should be clarified to say that you can only do it once.

Vovix: he/him

15-08-2021 18:04:16 UTC

Fixed and fixed.

Clucky: he/him

15-08-2021 18:25:58 UTC

the combination or struts and recycler seem really dangerous in regards to letting someone go infinite. I’ve at the very least got the “go infinite” part figured out, just not how to make it productive yet. but I figure with a little tweaking someone could figure that bit out (or has already figured it out)

Vovix: he/him

15-08-2021 18:36:00 UTC

There’s a limit of one Widget per machine, though, so you can have infinite (well, as much as you can afford) machines on Struts, but none of them will have Recyclers.

Clucky: he/him

15-08-2021 19:12:18 UTC

you can replace your recyclers with struts after you use them. makes it more expensive to pull off, but infinite is still infinite

anyways, I’ve now figured out the missing pieces to let you go infinite. does take a bit of an investment, but someone might be able to get that investment to go down.

for obvious reasons don’t want to share it with everyone incase this still passes, but if you’re interested in knowing what it is feel free to let me know and I might tell you!

Vovix: he/him

15-08-2021 19:37:24 UTC

Ah, so the real issue here is that Struts can be used as a way to pseudo-Demolish a machine that’s already been run. I think the fix then is to limit attaching Widgets only to Cold machines, which is probably a reasonable rule to have anyway.

Clucky: he/him

15-08-2021 19:46:32 UTC

I think attaching widgets to hot machines is fine and there might be cool stuff you can do with that. The struts/recycler feel like the bigger problem to me. Even if you change how widget attachment works, I’m unconfident there isn’t a way to work around the problem.

ais523:

16-08-2021 00:31:15 UTC

against per Clucky

Trapdoorspyder: he/him

16-08-2021 03:32:37 UTC

against This is what I was hoping for when I made widgets, but I believe a couple of these were too big of a miss.

Vovix: he/him

16-08-2021 03:41:02 UTC

Can you elaborate? I’m down to repropose with the list cut down to the ideas people like.

ais523:

16-08-2021 22:34:49 UTC

For what it’s worth, here’s an example of the sort of infinite loop this allows:

You can spend 1 even-numbered box plus 10 Cogs to build an Axe [Recycler], spend a second even-numbered Box to use it (outputting three boxes), and then spend 5 Cogs to swap the widget to Struts. If the second box you spent has exactly twice the value of the first, this will output copies of the two boxes you spent, plus one extra box, so this has the net effect of converting 15 Cogs into one Box without using up any space on your line.

You can spend 2 boxes plus 10 Cogs to build and use a Clink [Struts], gaining a number of Cogs equal to the value of the second box, without using up any space on your line.

If you start with a 42-box and a 84-box, therefore, you can generate an infinite number of Cogs; you can twice spend 15 Cogs to generate a 42-box, then use those two boxes plus 10 Cogs to generate 42 Cogs, making a net profit of 42 - 15 - 15 - 10 = 2 Cogs.

This isn’t the only infinite loop available, and it isn’t even a particularly efficient one, but it should be enough to get the idea of why Struts are too risky a thing to have in our Widget list. Probably the safest option is to simply remove Struts altogether (and possibly Recycler to be on the safe side).

Trapdoorspyder: he/him

16-08-2021 23:58:14 UTC

In particular, Gearbox, Fabricator, and Really Long Pipe (although I don’t see an immediate use for that one) are my favorite of the widgets you proposed. They either accentuate the Machine’s existing effects, or slightly change how those machines work, without breaking the game. Solar Panels don’t sound terrible either, but I prefer the other ones, although that might just be me.

ais523:

17-08-2021 00:16:21 UTC

I think Fabricator may be a little underpriced (e.g. if you put one on a Sugarcuber, you’re spending only 5 Cogs for a free 7-Box), but that can be fixed by making it more expensive.

Vovix: he/him

17-08-2021 01:00:01 UTC

@Ais, the proposal was updated to make it impossible to put Struts on a hot machine, so that loop doesn’t work. Also, worth noting that you can’t buy a Machine with Struts pre-attached, only attach Struts to a machine already in your line. So you still need to have free space for your Clink before you can buy it.

ais523:

17-08-2021 02:34:10 UTC

Ah, right.

Thinking about it some more, even if Recycler can’t be used to form a loop, it’s probably still too cheap (maybe it has to be removed because there’s no safe cost for it). There are players with very large boxes in storage (I see a 14-Box and a 16-Box at the moment); a Clink [Recycler] would therefore allow those players to generate 14-16 Credits every turn, which would trivially refund the cost of the Recycler. (Maybe, in a future version of this proposal, we could try a version which has a limit on the size of the box it can refund.)

Bucky:

17-08-2021 05:17:27 UTC

against

Clucky: he/him

17-08-2021 05:33:22 UTC

for

Brendan-style voting for the ability to use glue-gun shenanigans to go exponential, knowing that I have a head start on pretty much everyone else when it comes to that strategy.

Kevan: City he/him

17-08-2021 08:14:26 UTC

against