Monday, December 04, 2023

Proposal: As I Lay Dying

Withdrawn. Failed by JonathanDark.

Adminned at 05 Dec 2023 23:07:50 UTC

In the rule “Transition of Power”, add a subrule named “Health of the King” containing the following text:

There is a publicly tracked integer named Old King’s Health that defaults to 600. If the Old King is Ill, as a Daily Communal Action, any Heir or the Old King should subtract 1 from the Old King’s Health and then randomly roll DICE600. If the result of this dice roll is larger than the Old King’s Health, the Old King is no longer Ill and becomes Perished.

If the proposal “Domesday” was enacted, in the rule “Transition of Power”, after the text “When the Old King becomes Perished,”, add the following text:

if it has not yet been done this dynasty, any Heir or the Old King may perform the Legitimize atomic action, which is to perform the Appraise atomic action for every Claim. When the Legitimize action is complete,

This gives on average about 25 days, and at most 50 days, until the Old King is Perished. It’s not as dramatic as Josh’s proposal, but the chance of the dynasty ending scales about the same over time and doesn’t rely on how many Heirs perform a specific action.

I also added some text to trigger Appraise for all Claims right after the Old King becomes Perished and before the winner is determined so that the gamestate is up-to-date at that point.



04-12-2023 14:53:07 UTC

Actually, the Old King would live only 8.5 days on average

JonathanDark: he/him

04-12-2023 15:02:11 UTC

Hm, to be fair I didn’t fully explore the math on this. I’m open to suggestions on changing the numbers to make the average closer to 20-30 days.


04-12-2023 15:04:06 UTC

Initial Health should be 400 in order to get a average lifetime of about 25 days

Josh: Observer he/they

04-12-2023 15:09:14 UTC

Yeah I have this as a 52% chance of killing the king within a week

Josh: Observer he/they

04-12-2023 15:12:56 UTC

25 days is also a lot quicker than my proposal in practice, for those voting that one down on the basis of pace.

JonathanDark: he/him

04-12-2023 15:25:12 UTC

For me, the problem of Josh’s proposal was the pace plus the uncertainty given that it depends on how many Heirs participate.

My proposal doesn’t depend on how many Heirs participate, just that someone does the work daily. I think it also addresses Kevan’s thematic concern: the King is Ill, his Health should be steadily declining, and the chance of him becoming Perished gets worse as his Health decreases, all of which my Proposal meets.

I also feel like if people don’t like the pace of my Proposal, it’s easy enough to fix with a change in the King’s Health. The uncertainty of Josh’s proposal makes it much harder to adjust that.

JonathanDark: he/him

04-12-2023 15:29:05 UTC

Ok, I actually did the math for real this time and choose 600 as the Health and dice roll, which gives the dynasty a 50% chance of ending in 29 days. That’s close enough to the month-long dynasty pace that we usually experience, especially if you count the days that have passed already.

Josh: Observer he/they

04-12-2023 15:39:16 UTC

I mean, look, I’ll be voting against this for a variety of reasons, not least because it’s just a bit boring - but the long tail risk that the dynasty still hasn’t ended 550 days from now would also earn a red cross.

JonathanDark: he/him

04-12-2023 16:13:49 UTC

You say boring, I say less complicated. I’ve had plenty of Proposals shot down for being too much, so I’m going for simpler this time around.

Also, if the Old King hangs on for too long, we could always tweak the Health decrease or the dice rolls. It’s not like this is permanently etched in stone. If things got really dire, we could slap a “or the date is X” on it.

Josh: Observer he/they

04-12-2023 16:22:02 UTC

“It’s not like this is permanently etched in stone”

No proposals are, and yet you are voting against my proposal for similarly cast-in-stone reasons, despite mine having a much lower chance of accidentally keeping the dynasty going for the next two years.

And yeah, I do say boring; given how inert this is, and how long the tail of potential outcomes is, it would seem both less complicated and potentially more interesting to have a hard drop-date than a complicated dice-roll mechanism. My proposal had a dice roll at the heart of it because it was playing with variance as a mechanic - a musical chairs, who-is-holding-when-the-music-stops game design. But this offers way less churn in gamestate, and as such it offers a kind of version of musical chairs but where you can only change chairs once a month - at which point, what’s the point? I think you have to lean into random or lean away from it, but this seems like an awkward halfway house to me.

JonathanDark: he/him

04-12-2023 16:39:00 UTC

I’m not sure about “awkward”, but yeah I get the point. Really, I’m just floating this Proposal in the marketplace of ideas to probe for where people are on the spectrum of “end the dynasty randomly” to “end the dynasty deterministically”. Or maybe more accurately, the spectrum might be considered as “end the dynasty through dice rolls” vs “end the dynasty through player actions”.

If this one gets voted down as well, I think the trend will likely be to something more deterministic. Perhaps the rest of the player base would prefer a mechanic that reduced the King’s health directly through player actions alone and then triggered Perished when Health reaches 0. Sort of a “shared diminishing resource” to “spend” the Old King’s Health with every action.

Food for thought.

JonathanDark: he/him

04-12-2023 16:43:26 UTC

And yes, I’m aware that your proposal had both random and deterministic player-controlled elements. I just don’t know what everyone actually wants, so this is a test to find out.

Clucky: he/him

04-12-2023 18:04:07 UTC

even if its rare, I think its lame if we get a fluke and the dynasty ends super early

SingularByte: he/him

04-12-2023 20:53:47 UTC

I think I’m with Clucky on this one. It suddenly ending after only a couple of days would not be great.

I think my ideal would be for there to be some strong expectation of when it would end, but with player interaction to let you manipulate it.

Josh: Observer he/they

04-12-2023 21:05:10 UTC


JonathanDark: he/him

04-12-2023 21:11:22 UTC

Ok, that’s fair. So, no to dice rolls involved in when the dynasty ends, but yes to player interaction. I’ll work on something for tomorrow unless someone else beats to me to it.

Zack: he/him

04-12-2023 22:28:09 UTC

against I would be fine with a dice roll to decide when the king perishes but since it’s still so early, there should be something built-in to ensure the dynasty doesn’t end immediately after it passes.


05-12-2023 06:41:45 UTC


Kevan: he/him

05-12-2023 09:09:37 UTC

against Does seem too unpredictable if the dynasty can suddenly end at any time, with increasing likelihood but no warning.

JonathanDark: he/him

05-12-2023 13:54:33 UTC

against Withdrawn