Thursday, July 29, 2021

Proposal: Betterment of the Ruleset, one Proposal at a Time #Replacement_Edition [Appendix]

4 votes against means quorum can not be reached without a change of vote.—Clucky

Adminned at 30 Jul 2021 15:58:00 UTC

Adds a new Subrule, named “Replacement Effects” under Clarifications, “-“ is considered to be bullet points::

There may be some text in the Ruleset that can watch the game and replace other actions that are happening, often denoted with “instead”, “instead of” or “is replaced with”.
- A Replacement Rule consists of two parts, the Gamestate Events to be watched for and the Replaced Events. (e.g. “Whenever a Vampire Lord gains Mana, they gain that many Crystals instead.” is a Replacement Rule which watches the Gamestate for “when a Vampire Lord gains Mana” and replaces that event with “that Vampire Lord gaining that many Crystals”)
- A Replacement Rule may only invoke itself once whenever a Gamestate event that matches the Gamestate Events to be watched for happens.  (e.g. If “Whenever a Vampire Lord gains Mana, they gain twice that Mana instead” is in the Ruleset, and Haruka, a Vampire Lord gains Mana, they only get twice that Mana but not Infinite Mana.)
- If a Replacement Rule replaces some Event, the Original Event is considered to have never happened, instead the Replaced Events are considered to have happened and in turn, can trigger other parts of the Ruleset. (e.g. If “Whenever a Vampire Lord gains Mana, they gain that many Crystals instead.” and “Whenever a Vampire Lord gains Mana, they become Dusted” exists in the Ruleset, and Haruka gains 5 Mana, Haruka will not be Dusted since the Mana-gaining event was replaced with gaining Crystals and such, the Original Mana-gaining effect is considered to have not happened at all.)
- If one or more Replacement Rule is Triggered and would replace an event, but that event never happens possibly due to Pritorisations, the Replacement Rule simply doesn’t do anything. (e.g. If “If a rule would ever have no name, it is instead given the name of the proposal that created it, or (if this is not possible) the name “Unnamed Rule” exists in the Appendix, and “Whenever there is a rule with no name, Haruka achieves Victory” exists in the Dynastic Rule, and there is a Rule having no name, although “Haruka achieves Victory” would be triggered, “Giving the No-Named Rule a Name” in the Appendix takes precedence and gives the rule with no name a name, thus there will be no instants when there is a rule with no name and so, Haruka can’t achieve Victory using “Whenever there is a rule with no name, Haruka achieves Victory”.)

Some Ruleset prerequisites that Kevan mentioned in the original proposal of Dependency Issue. Open to discussion in the 8 hrs of proposal modification timeslot - although it’s most certainly a protosal, I don’t think it’s good to just put the discussion inside the Slack and possibly get deleted since there’s a 10k message limit.

Comments

Josh: he/they

29-07-2021 09:29:36 UTC

On a general point of principle, the examples are good but should avoid using dummy names, especially when then pointing out that they are specifically present as names of players (“Haruka, a Vampire Lord”) - the ‘Vampire Lord’ will continue to change to the player term of each dynasty, and so a future player could easily change their name to Haruka to engineer a situation where they have permanent double mana, or possibly achieve victory.

This is proving quite tricky for me to parse, and it does feel like a lot of quite dense text for what has proven to be a very occasional, fringe occurrence.

There may be some text in the Ruleset that can watch the game and replace other actions that are happening, often denoted with “instead”, “instead of” or “is replaced with”.
- A Replacement Rule consists of two parts, the Gamestate Events to be watched for and the Replaced Events.
- A Replacement Rule may only invoke itself once whenever a Gamestate event that matches the Gamestate Events to be watched for happens.
- If a Replacement Rule replaces some Event, the Original Event is considered to have never happened, instead the Replaced Events are considered to have happened and in turn, can trigger other parts of the Ruleset.
- If one or more Replacement Rule is Triggered and would replace an event, but that event never happens possibly due to Pritorisations, the Replacement Rule simply doesn’t do anything.

That’s what it looks like without the examples…

Josh: he/they

29-07-2021 09:30:51 UTC

I guess I’m wondering what here is clarified that isn’t implicit in the simple use of an “if… instead” formulation.

Kevan: City he/him

29-07-2021 15:34:57 UTC

This seems to be a solid explanation of a term I think we all have the same understanding of, only adding that if two Insteads happen at the same time and are prioritised in sequence (should we have a prioritisation rule that says to do that) we should always skip the second one.

This feels more like a wider matter for the prioritisation rule than the definition of “instead”: there’s some similar trouble with a couple of rules saying “when X happens, Y/Z also happens” if Y and Z are mutually exclusive and we need to work out which one takes priority.

Chiiika: she/her

29-07-2021 16:11:20 UTC

@Kevan I think we need the basis before stepping on the Prioritisation matter - one Proposal at a time

Kevan: City he/him

29-07-2021 18:16:52 UTC

If we had a Prioritisation rule that gave a clear resolution to situations where two rules called for mutually exclusive things to happen (which is mostly covered by the current rule, just not when the two contradictory rules both happen to be equally specific dynastic clauses), I don’t think we’d also need to define what “instead” meant, we’d be fine with the expected standard English meaning.

Chiiika: she/her

30-07-2021 06:13:02 UTC

@Kevan, I think we need this to also agree on should two nonconflicting Replacement Rules apply both of them to a Event. (If a Replacement Rule replaces something, that Modified Event can continue to be replaced by another nonconflicting Replacement Rule; although that original Replacement Rule cannot replace again in the Modified Event, per “A Replacement Rule may only invoke itself once when the Gamestate Events to be watched happens.”)

Chiiika: she/her

30-07-2021 06:13:24 UTC

Also, another problem is I’m out of slots right now.

Josh: he/they

30-07-2021 08:13:22 UTC

against

Kevan: City he/him

30-07-2021 09:49:33 UTC

Is there such a thing as “two nonconflicting Replacement Rules”, though? If two things are replacing one, that’s a conflict as to which replaces it.

against

Chiiika: she/her

30-07-2021 10:18:33 UTC

There can be two nonconflicting Replacement Rules.

Events: Haruka gains 5 Crystals, and is Attentive.

Replacement Rule 1: “Whenever a Vampire Lord gains Crystals, they gain 5 more Crystals instead.”

Replacement Rule 2: “Whenever a Vampire Lord is Attentive and completes a Action that gains Crystals, they gain 2 more Crystals and lose Attentive.

Chiiika: she/her

30-07-2021 10:20:19 UTC

* Replacement Rule 2 should be

Replacement Rule 2: “Whenever a Vampire Lord is Attentive and completes a Action that gains Crystals, they gain 2 more Crystals and lose Attentive instead.

Brendan: he/him

30-07-2021 15:34:40 UTC

against Though I think this is a step in the right direction.

Clucky: he/him

30-07-2021 15:57:27 UTC

against