Monday, August 05, 2019

Call for Judgment: Time Capsule Orders

Timed out 0 votes to 5. Failed by Kevan.

Adminned at 07 Aug 2019 14:26:46 UTC

Change “Apply to the Chart all (legal) Orders received from Captains during the latest Watch.”
“Apply to the Chart all valid Orders (and what were valid Orders at the time they were received) that were received from Captains during the latest Watch.

Problems happen when a Proposal changes what defines a valid order. Valid Orders sent should remain valid, no matter when they will be applied. Creating a ship now without spending NARCs is just one example.



05-08-2019 14:30:39 UTC


Kevan: he/him

05-08-2019 18:03:50 UTC

against Treating invalid orders as valid feels weird. If we vote to repeal Submarines on Monday, they can still move and fire on Tuesday?

The lesson from NARCs is maybe not to modify Orders in a manner that invalidates earlier ones. In this case, there was no need for the cost to be part of the Order, it could have just added “When this Order is processed, the Captain gains X NARCs.” If we did actually want to repeal or change an Order during the game, we could put a “repeal this Order at the end of the next Watch” clause onto the original rather than removing it immediatley.


05-08-2019 19:43:29 UTC

CoV imperial


05-08-2019 19:55:46 UTC

I tend to agree, it feels weird. But that will mean that changing almost ANYthing Watch-based would have to be delayed somehow until the start of the next watch. (End of the watch would be right for a very few things: it would be between our submitting Orders and Farsight applying them.)

Kevan: he/him

05-08-2019 20:31:29 UTC

If it’s a regular problem, we can give it a mechanic: instead of removing an Order, add “This Order is Obsolete.” to it and add a Watch step for the Admiral to remove all Obsolete Orders.

We also need to address the flipside (which this CfJ doesn’t): what happens when someone proposes a new Order, now? It’s only available to people submitting their Orders after it enacts, which seems unfair. (Having new Orders added with “This Order is Belayed”, a state which is removed as a Watch step and prevents the Order from being taken, would fix that. And if we want to change an Order fundamentally, we can make the original Obsolete and Belay the replacement.)


05-08-2019 21:43:38 UTC

against Decent admin advantage, too, if an enacting admin always gets to have the best of two options while getting to lock other Captains out.


05-08-2019 21:54:33 UTC

Interesting, I like that idea. We can easily make the rule Admiral independent, too. Just say the obsolete Order or the “belayed” phrase “is removed from the rules” at the start of the next Watch. Then any Captain could do it.

derrick: he/him

05-08-2019 22:04:27 UTC



05-08-2019 22:27:49 UTC

Not technically S/K, but CoV at least.

Kevan: he/him

06-08-2019 09:23:34 UTC

[TyGuy6] Making an effect invisibly automatic is a bad idea, as anyone reading the ruleset between the invisible effect happening and a Captain remembering to update the ruletext would be shown illegal rules (and could unwittingly take illegal actions). Worst case, we’d forget to remove one of them for weeks and have to decide how to clean up a snowball of illegal events.

Thunder: he/him

06-08-2019 21:22:44 UTC


Kevan: he/him

07-08-2019 10:08:07 UTC

(Note to other admins that Imperial DEFs only resolve on proposals, so this is still unfailable at 0-5.)