Friday, July 15, 2011

Call for Judgment: Shoving a Gladiator with no AP

Times out 5-3 and is enacted. -coppro

Adminned at 17 Jul 2011 14:36:38 UTC

In the Rule “Turn-Based Actions” change

A Gladiator taking this action may select a Gladiator in an adjacent Arena Square, and move that Gladiator into any square that Gladiator could legally Step into that is not adjacent to the Shoving Gladiator.

to

A Gladiator taking this action may select a Gladiator in an adjacent Arena Square, and move that Gladiator into any square that Gladiator could legally Step into disregarding that Gladiators AP that is not adjacent to the Shoving Gladiator.

Every shove that happened before the time this proposal was put online was legal, even if the Shoved Gladiator did not have any AP.

Shoving allows a Gladiator to move an adjacent Gladiator to a Square that Gladiator could legally step into. To legally step into any square, a Gladiator needs at least one AP. Thus, shoving doesn’t work with Gladiators that do not have any AP. This intends to fix it and make every shove that happened up until now legal.

Comments

Josh: HE/HIM

07-15-2011 12:13:48 UTC

against moving is not the same as Stepping, the Main Action, and I see no need to conflate them.

mideg:

07-15-2011 12:22:04 UTC

True. But Shoving requires that the victim can legally step there.
Moving is not used.
“A Gladiator taking this action may select a Gladiator in an adjacent Arena Square, and move that Gladiator into any square that Gladiator could legally Step into.”
A Gladiator can only Step on any Square if he has the AP to do so, true? So, if a Gladiator is being shoved, he doesn’t need to spend an AP (because he is being moved by the shove-action) but he need to _have_ an AP (because otherwise he couldn’t legally step anywhere).

SingularByte:

07-15-2011 13:54:04 UTC

for

Josh: HE/HIM

07-15-2011 14:25:19 UTC

for Cov per mideg.

Yoda:

07-15-2011 14:50:30 UTC

for even though the last sentence won’t do anything since this is not a proposal (even if it were, it would mean that no one could shove in the time that this is up)

Yoda:

07-15-2011 14:50:54 UTC

er, shove someone with 0 AP…

Prince Anduril:

07-15-2011 16:44:29 UTC

against Surely the shoved gladiator is not “taking an action” as he is not “moving himself” but being moved. If the shoved gladiator is not taking an action, then his number of action points is irrelevant.

mideg:

07-15-2011 17:18:09 UTC

Anduril: You are right that the shoved Gladiator does not take an action. Thus he does not need to spend an AP. BUT: he can only be shoved to a square that he could legally step to. Now, if he does not have any AP, can he legally step anywhere?

Blacky:

07-15-2011 17:50:10 UTC

for

Prince Anduril:

07-15-2011 21:07:06 UTC

If you mean - Can he legally step to any square:

Well the phrase used is “legally step into”, so the rules for stepping apply. The rules for stepping state that it involves moving from one square to an adjacent square (which since there is not an “If” at the beginning of the clause, is not conditional on the Gladiator taking the action).

Therefore, the shoved Gladiator may be shoved to one of the 3 or 5 squares, which fulfil these conditions, and are not blocked (anywhere within the arena, and not containing a Large Object). The rules do not give permission for a gladiator to be shoved anywhere, but only to these squares - regardless of the AP the shoved gladiator has.

If you mean - can he legally step at all:

Yes, because he is not taking, (or performing) the action - Someone is taking/performing it for him.

Bucky:

07-15-2011 21:42:41 UTC

against

aguydude:

07-15-2011 22:42:08 UTC

against  Per Anduril

scshunt:

07-15-2011 22:42:56 UTC

for

Doctor29:

07-16-2011 01:58:44 UTC

imperial i dont really understand this too well

mideg:

07-16-2011 06:34:53 UTC

Anduril:

Actually, the phrase is “could legally Step into”, not only “legally Step into”. Since the clause “if he had AP” is not mentioned, we cannot assume that “could” meant that. It could also mean “if it was his turn” or “if the moon was full”.

The only conclusion I can come to is that a shoved Gladiator with no AP “could” not step anywhere. Thus I can’t legally shove him anywhere.

Here’s Shoving as a reminder:


“A Gladiator taking this action may select a Gladiator in an adjacent Arena Square, and move that Gladiator into any square that Gladiator could legally Step into that is not adjacent to the Shoving Gladiator. If any Gladiators die as a result of processing the effects of the Shove, then the Shoving Gladiator is awarded one Frag for each such Gladiator death. Shoving costs 2AP.”

Doc: I don’t think IMPERIAL works on CfJs. :-)

Prince Anduril:

07-16-2011 11:40:53 UTC

Indeed - Imperials don’t count. But the onus is on the FOR voters to get a Quorum, so you have 3 days to get 3 more votes.

Whether it is “could” or not, the rules for stepping still apply. “Could” in this context simply means “...and move the Gladiator into any square that it is legally possible for that Gladiator to step into…”

The point I’m making is that Gladiators cannot take actions without AP. But being pushed is not taking an action, so can be done without AP.

mideg:

07-16-2011 12:42:18 UTC

I understand your way of thinking, I just think it’s wrong. Even if it would be phrased the way you did above (“any square that it is legally possible for that Gladiator to step into”) I still say that if the Gladiator who is being shoved has no AP, then it is legally not possible to step into any Square. Thus shoving is not possible.

Regardless, the change that comes with this CfJ does not hurt anyone who thinks that there was no problem before.

Prince Anduril:

07-17-2011 05:59:05 UTC

That’s fine then. We don’t need to agree, after all. There are the arguments people, decide as you will.