Thursday, February 19, 2015

Proposal: Disable all Android Powers

Sabotaged. Failed by Kevan.

Adminned at 20 Feb 2015 21:40:57 UTC

Repeal the first paragraph of the subrule “Sabotage”.

Repeal the subrule “Demands”.

Repeal the subrule “Phasers”.

Repeal the second paragraph of the subrule “Drugs”.

The Androids apparently don’t want the Atmosphere to be Paranoid (given that they drugged Bucky to be much less Paranoid).

If everyone votes FOR on this proposal, the Androids will be forced to Sabotage it (or else forever lose all their powers), making the Atmosphere Paranoid again.



19-02-2015 18:20:41 UTC


Kevan: City he/him

19-02-2015 18:30:30 UTC



19-02-2015 19:16:08 UTC


Darknight: he/him

19-02-2015 20:55:32 UTC


Brendan: he/him

19-02-2015 21:05:53 UTC

against Because Trials are pointless for the time being anyway.

Josh: he/they

19-02-2015 22:07:19 UTC

against This could potentially lose us the game instantly.

If an Android is an Admin, they can submit a Sabotage request on this at its last moment and then enact it. If they do then the Sabotage request was legal and the Ship’s Computer would have to honour it (see the earlier Sabotage request, which was honoured upon receipt at 25 hours after passage because it was sent 24 hours after passage).

In that situation, the phaser rule would leave the ruleset, then re-enter it. Because all of the actions that led to this taking place were legal, the argument could be convincingly advanced that it was re-written into the ruleset rather than its deletion having been reverted. This would mean that all Androids would have their phasers renewed.

In a worst-case scenario, that would mean 5 phaser rounds going off in ten minutes. Even in a reasonable-case that’s three phaser rounds, leaving the game at two-on-two. The best case, in which the Android with a live phaser round is already disabled, still leaves us facing an extra shot.

It would be CfJd, but I’m not convinced that it would be deemed illegal.

It is of course a risky play for the Androids but the rewards would be substantial.

I support the sentiment of this but would suggest a reproposal without tampering with phasers.


19-02-2015 22:57:36 UTC

It’s up to Kevan to decide how exactly to revert the gamestate.

Also, the proposal removes the Sabotage rule. So Kevan wouldn’t be able to act on the revert; it’d have been submitted legally, but Kevan wouldn’t have the authority to actually do the reverts, so the Phasers rule would stay out. No rule can have an effect that lasts beyond the moment it’s repealed, and Kevan definitely can’t arbitrarily change the rules without a rule saying that he can. (And a repealed rule is insufficient authority because, you know, it’s been repealed.)

Also, interesting that the two players I think are Androids voted against this proposal, and that Josh voted against Brendan’s trial.


20-02-2015 01:43:31 UTC

Yep, it’s pretty much got to be a Josh/Brendan Android team at this point. The Android’s actions mostly seem to match up with their interests, and vice versa (e.g. the Androids seem to want to avoid Trials for as long as possible, which matches up with the fact that the Trials have mostly been on Josh and Brendan; and both Josh and Brendan have voted AGAINST this proposal, with utterly awful reasoning on the part of Brendan and reasonable-looking but incorrect reasoning on the part of Josh, presumably to delay the length of time until they have to Sabotage this proposal as long as possible).


20-02-2015 03:59:48 UTC

for Josh, you are wrong. This Proposal is very helpful to the Humans. Please someone vote For or CoV to For so we can swing the game… and make it snappy, this needs one more vote to go off.


20-02-2015 05:42:55 UTC

CoV against


20-02-2015 05:44:09 UTC



20-02-2015 05:47:03 UTC

(A word of explanation may be in order - if enacted, this would cross my line with regards to what is acceptable for a biased strategic proposal.  I’m changing my vote so that this has time to be properly sabotaged.)


20-02-2015 05:56:34 UTC

A different word of explanation should also be in order here. I PMed _Fox_ a few minutes ago, explaining that this proposal was at the head of the queue and could be adminned right now if only he voted FOR. He voted AGAINST instead.

Thus, _Fox_ is either an Android or in league with them. We already know that _Fox_ wasn’t (at the time, at least) involved with the conspiracy that disabled Darknight.

Based on the timings that happened here and in this post (which was adminned less than 9 minutes after a CoV, and when the CoV happened after the proposal had already timed out), _Fox_ + Bucky seems incredibly likely to be part of an alliance. This alliance must also contain an Android, because otherwise it would have no reason to act in such a hideously pro-Android manner as we’ve just seen from Bucky and _Fox_. (I also note that the proposal isn’t even passing now; Bucky and _Fox_ are thus presumably scheming to prevent trials being made for some reason or another.)

At this point, I’m pretty frustrated that we aren’t playing Werewolf. If we were, I’d be able to gain some advantage from correctly identifying an alliance. As it is, all I can really do is look on helplessly.

Josh: he/they

20-02-2015 07:27:11 UTC

“No rule can have an effect that lasts beyond the moment it’s repealed”

I’m not sure that this is true and I’m definitely sure that it’s never been tested. If an action that kicks off an essentially automatic chain of events is take and the rule that governs those events is repealed midway through their enactment, then the questions of whether the automatic chain of events carries on or falls over is interesting but not explicitly resolvable.

Also, you know, I agree with Bucky. Outside of the interests of the game, and abstracting away from game objectives, this is way too much for a strategic play and will have a huge outcome if actually enacted. The Androids didn’t immediately sabotage this, so they’re calling our bluff, and frankly bluff called - neutering the Androids at this stage would cut the core out of the game.

There may be another way to do this, though.


20-02-2015 07:36:13 UTC

The core of the game is manouverings between Humans, really. And it’s not like it reveals the Androids’ identities.

Anyway, I’m positive that a rule won’t last beyond its own repeal unless it specifically says it does, and none of the current rules do. That’s kind-of the purpose of repealing rules: to stop them having an effect.

We also have this sentence in the glossary:

If the admin enacting a proposal reaches a step which cannot be applied immediately (eg. “two days after this proposal enacts, Crewmember A gains 1 point”), that step is ignored for the purposes of enactment. Once a proposal has been enacted, it can have no further direct effect on the gamestate.

which sets out the principle of “no permanent effects that aren’t in the ruleset”. It makes a lot more sense for people to imagine that a enacted proposal might have such an effect (something which has been tested, multiple times, with varying results) than for a repealed rule to have such an effect.

Besides, the principle has been tested, back in the Fifth Metadynasty, when you attempted to retroactively win Round One. If you, or anyone else, had at all thought that the principle might work, it’d have given you an alternative path to victory.


20-02-2015 07:40:23 UTC

Finally, I dislike all these claim of Androids calling our bluff. The Androids have, presumably because they feel that they’ve got _Fox_ and Bucky bought, refrained from visibly Sabotaging the proposal thus far. This is giving the Humans a huge opportunity to end the Android threat permanently. Not taking it is similar to intentionally throwing the game, because your opponents are taking a risky route and you’re basically saying “sure, you can do that, why don’t you have yourself a free Atmosphere adjustment however you choose”.

Kevan: City he/him

20-02-2015 08:25:14 UTC

veto Sabotaged.