BlogNomic: The First Dynasty of Desertfrog

What’s this ruleset edit about, Cuddlebeam? Did that fragment get removed by mistake somewhere since its original enactment?

Yes. Copypastaing from Slack:

“As for the removal of the “moving fulfills restlessness”, it was removed by Quirk here:  `16:26, 12 March 2017‎ Quirck (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (38,558 bytes) (+380)‎ . . (→‎Dynastic Rules: enacting “Keywords, This Time There’s Three Of Them!”) `. That proposal is here: https://blognomic.com/archive/keywords_this_time_theres_three_of_them

There is no mention of removal of the Limb satisfaction doohickeys in that proposal, so yeah.”

Ah! Good catch.

How are we laying eggs in cells with neighbors that are immediately destroyed?  The ruleset clearly states that eggs cannot be laid in cells with neighbors that aren’t seaweed.

The rules state

An egg sack may spend one of each nutrient listed in Nutrients to lay an egg cluster in the cell the creature is in, if that cell contains no neighbors that are not seaweed. Its state is unfertilized, it has no fathers yet, its cell is the current cell, and its mother is the organ that laid it.

and

An egg cluster that shares a cell with a neighbor that is not seaweed at any time is changed to the stage “Destroyed”

But does not prevent organs from laying egg clusters in locations with neighbors.

Ah true. Consider my laying of Egg #3 (the destroyed one) to have been a transfer of those nutrients to the Statolith instead, because convenience.

Which really irks me lol, but oh well.

Oh shoot, I read it as “if that cell contains no neighbors that are not seaweed, its state is unfertilized”

Hrmmmmm card could have a point there but I’m unsure about this:

“if that cell contains no neighbors that are not seaweed”

Egg 3 was laid in a Brine Pool that has Mussels in it. I think that wouldn’t be allowed to be a valid egglay then, no? (take it as a bgnm transfer to the Statolith instead, rather than a spending of bgnm to make an egg cluster)

Ah, OK. Amending Egg #3 to simply be a transfer of bgnm to the statolith instead of a consumption of bgnm to lay eggs.

R.I.P. Devily Cardson and Hopey Cuddlebeamson

Exhausted but finished pulling a scam. Could be Fool’s Gold entirely but it was fun as fuck. The rule I was exploiting was:

“If an action fulfills a mood, and that mood is the highest or tied for the highest of that creature’s moods, that mood decreases by one, and the organ may take up to 2 nutrients from the statolith, if the statolith has them, and its creature’s Satisfaction Level increases by 1.”

Where the comma before “and the organ may take up to 2 nutrients” is an Oxford Comma, and so is the one before “and its creature’s Satisfaction Level increases by 1.”

So, basically, I “may take up to 2 nutrients” in a very similar way to how Kevan used “may reduce the intelligence of a random caveman by 2 (including himself).” in his move to CoV here: https://blognomic.com/archive/predators_attack/

Here is the full log of actions I’ve taken:

(this is my inventory of nutrients)
<this is the Statolith’s inventory of nutrients>

Take* bg (0->bg) <b6 g17 n6 m20>
Take* gg (bg->bggg) <b7 g15 n6 m20>
Morphing into Choanocyte with g (bgg->bg)
Fertilize Card’s egg cluster with g (bg->b)
Take* gm (b->bgm) <b7 g14 n6 m19>
Morph to Egg Sack with m (bgm->bg)
Take* nm (bg->bgnm) <b7 g14 n5 m18>
Lay Egg Cluster (bgnm->0)

Take* mg (0->mg) <b7 g13 n6 m17>
Morph to Limb with m (mg->g)
Move to The Great Vent (g->-), Satifaction 5->4
Take* mg (0->mg) <b7 g12 n6 m16>
Morph to Egg Sack with m (mg->g)
Take* nm (g->nmg) <b7 g12 n5 m15>
Take* bm (g->bgnmm) <b6 g12 n5 m14>
Give m to Statolith (bgnmm->bgnm), Hunger becomes 0
Lay Egg Cluster (bgnm->0)

Take* bm (0->bm) <b5 g12 n5 m13>
Take* ng (bm->bbnm) <b5 g11 n4 m13>
Lay Egg Cluster (bgnm->0)

Take* bm (0->bm) <b4 g11 n4 m12>
Take* ng (bm->bbnm) <b4 g10 n3 m12>
Lay Egg Cluster (bgnm->0)

Take* mg (0->mg) <b4 g9 n3 m11>
Morph to Limb with m (mg->g)
Move to The Green Vent (g->0), Satisfaction 4->3
Take* gg (0->gg) <b4 g7 n3 m11>
Take* gg (gg->gggg) <b4 g5 n3 m11>
Move to Cuddlebeam’s Reef. AKA Best Reef. (gggg->ggg) Satisfaction 3->2
Move to Sea of Eden (ggg->gg), Satisfaction 2->1
Move to Crevice of Pendantry (gg->g), Satisfaction 1->0
Move to Brine Pool of Hope (g->0)
Take* bm (0->gm) <b3 g5 n3 m10>
Morph to Stinger (bm->m)
Sting Mussels to E6 (m->0)
Take* mm (0->mm) <b3 g5 n3 m8>
Morph to Egg Sack (mm->m)
Take* bn (m->mbn) <b2 g5 n2 m8>
Take* gg (mbn->mbngg) <b3 g3 n3 m8>
Give g to Statolith (mbngg->mbng) <b3 g4 n3 m8>
Lay Egg Cluster (bgnm->0)

Take* mg (0->mg) <b3 g3 n3 m7>
Morph to Limb (mg->g)
Move to Cuddlebeam’s Brine Pool (g->0)
Take* mm <b3 g3 n3 m5>
Morph to Stinger (mm->m)
Take* bm (m->bm) <b2 g3 n3 m4>
Sting Mussels to E7 (bm->m)
Morph to Egg Sack (m->0)
Take* bg (0->bg) <b1 g2 n3 m4>
Take* nm (bg->bgnm) <b1 g2 n2 m3>
Lay Egg Cluster (bgnm->0)

Take* mm (0->mm) <b1 g2 n3 m2>
Morph to Gland (mm->m)
Take* nn (m->mnn) <b1 g2 n1 m2>
Give m to card (mnn->nn)
Take* mg (nn->nnmg) <b1 g1 n1 m1>
Give g to derrick (nnmg->nnm)
Give m to Oracular Rufio (nnm->nn)
Take* bg (nn->nnbg) <b0 g0 n1 m1>
Give bn to pokes (nnbg->ng)
Take* nm (ng->ngnm) <b0 g0 n0 m0>

No time to write up a whole CfJ about this right now but

The Caveman scam wasn’t about an Oxford comma, it was exploiting the poorly-worded rule that a Caveman could call an attack “If no other caveman has done so in the last 18 h”. This should really have just said “if no caveman” - “no other” meant that the same Caveman could keep taking the action repeatedly, hundreds of times.

Are you arguing that the Oxford comma somehow splits this sentence into two unrelated sentences, such that “the organ may take up to 2 nutrients from the statolith, if the statolith has them, and its creature’s Satisfaction Level increases by 1” can be invoked as a standalone clause? I don’t think that’s how Oxford commas work. It also says “the organ”, not “an” or “any” Organ.

<img scr=“http://derrickthewhite.com/images/blognomicstatebeforeNeighbors.png”>

as noted by this image, only one of those locations is neighbor free. Also, who renamed all of cuddlebeam’s locations?

[Derrick] I gave them neutral names after By Any Other Name enacted and turned them all back to Scouted Locations.

I don’t see how that sentence can be interpreted that way.

Not every comma before an and is an Oxford comma.  I also think you don’t know what an Oxford comma actually is.

[Sphinx] It’s a misreading of the sentence, not an interpretation. Unless you were talking to someone else.

If I understand correctly this hinges on Cuddlebeam reading “If condition X, then you may Y, and you may Z” as “(if X, then Y) and Z” instead of a customary “if X then (Y and Z)”.

Also, you can’t move mussels around because they are not mobile.  One wonders if you even read the rules.

There is a difference between reading rules for understanding and reading rules for exploits. I’ve got a player in a tabletop RPG who reads rules for exploits, and it shows.

That said, this is gnomic, and reading for exploits is kind of part of the game—though it is one this particular gnomic has historically downplayed.

He’s found some valid exploits (like that stupid brine-pool trick). I’d prefer it if we keep exploits to ones that remain when the author’s intent is followed.

What stupid brine pool trick?

Also, ideally you should read the rules for understanding first and then read them for exploits after you have some semblance of understanding.  Your exploit won’t work anyway if you can’t follow the rest of the rules.

When I wrote egg sacks and stingers, I wrote under the assumption that features would imply neighbors. You’re supposed to have to chase neighbors off before laying eggs in a location, because neighbors destroy eggs. Brine pools and vents (and some others) don’t have mobile neighbors, so you wouldn’t be able to lay eggs there. You also can’t move neighbors to brine pools and vents, which means that eggs that get laid in an empty brine pool can’t be destroyed at the moment.

features scouted before the “life” rule don’t spawn neighbors. So there are not supposed to be mussels in the brine pool of calm. Three rules combined to make that loophole.

Eh, that’s not that much of a loophole, I assumed that was what you intended.

[derrick] If you read

Ocellus: As a daily action, an organ of this state may scout any location that is adjacent to to its Creature’s current location.

You’ll notice that you can scout any location, even already scouted ones. Neighbors spawn when a location is scouted, so it is possible to scout them, but the only result would be a neighbor spawning. You can even spawn multiple neighbors, since there’s no rule saying anything about having more than one. It’s sort of a waste of resources and daily actions though, since neighbors don’t do very much at the moment.

Nice try cuddles, but absorbing ambient nutrients is a daily action. You did it twice in a row.

No? Here is my full log for today’s actions, please revise:

1) Be Egg Sack (-)
2) Take 3 (0->ngg)
3) Morph to Gland (ngg->ng)
4) Absorb Ambient, Satisfy Hunger (-3->-4), Take gn as reward (ng->nngg)
5) Increase Restlessness (-4->-2) (nngg->ngg)
6) Increase Restlessness (-2->0) (ngg->gg)
7) Morph to Limb (gg->g)
8) Move to Cuddlebeam’s Reef (g->0), Satisfy Restlessness (0->-1), take gg as reward (0->gg)
9) Move to Sea of Eden (gg->g), Satisfy Restlessness (-1->-2), Take gg as reward (gg->ggg)
10) Move to The Great Crevice (ggg->gggg)
11) Give 1g to Pokes (gggg->ggg)
12) Move to The Green Vent, Satisfy Restlessness (-2->-3), Take gg as reward (ggg->gggg)
13) Morph to Choanocyte (gggg->ggg)
14) Fertilize Egg Cluster 3 (ggg->gg)
15) Morph to Limb (gg->g)
16) Move to Cuddlebeam’s Reef (g->0), Satisfy Restlessness (-3->-4), Take gg as reward (0->gg)
17) Move to Sea Of Eden (gg->g), Satisfy Restlessness (-4->-5), Take ng as reward (g->ngg)
18) Morph to Occelus (ngg->ng)
19) Scout Brine Pool of Hope, Satisfy Curiosity (-4->-5), Take ng as reward (ng->nngg)
20) Morph to Gland (nngg->nng)
21) Increase Increase Restlessness (-5->-3) (nng->ng)
22) Morph to Limb (ng->g)
23) Move to Brine Pool of Hope (g->0), Satisfy Restlessness (-3->-4), Take gg as reward (0->gg)
24) Move to Cuddlebeam’s Brine Pool (gg->g), Satisfy Restlessness (-4->-5), Take nb as reward (g->gnb)

Hmm, 3 day old proposals. I guess no Admin is obligated to enact them, but it makes me curious as to their reason for not doing it.

10) Move to The Great Crevice (ggg->gggg)
Shouldn’t that be “10) Move to The Great Crevice (ggg->gg)”?

[card] Just haven’t gotten around to doing it yet. on it now.
[cuddlembeam] I see! Appears twice, but it just one action. Got it.

Ah, found it. When you make two changes at the same time in the GNDT, it splits it into two history entries with the same comment apparently. Most likely its that:

10) Is flawed. FUUUUUUCK lol. Since moving satisfies Restlessness all the time, I must’ve done that in error. Please allow me a moment to amend that.

1) Be Egg Sack (-)
2) Take 3 (0->ngg)
3) Morph to Gland (ngg->ng)
4) Absorb Ambient, Satisfy Hunger (-3->-4), Take gn as reward (ng->nngg)
5) Increase Restlessness (-4->-2) (nngg->ngg)
6) Increase Restlessness (-2->0) (ngg->gg)
7) Morph to Limb (gg->g)
8) Move to Cuddlebeam’s Reef (g->0), Satisfy Restlessness (0->-1), take gg as reward (0->gg)
9) Move to Sea of Eden (gg->g), Satisfy Restlessness (-1->-2), Take gg as reward (gg->ggg)

—-AMENDED—-

10) Move to The Great Crevice (ggg->gg) Satisfy Restlessness (-2->-3), Take bg as reward (gg->bggg)
11) Give b to Pokes (bggg->ggg)
12) Move to The Green Vent (ggg->gg), Satisfy Restlessness (-3->-4), Take gg as reward (gg->gggg)
13) Morph to Choanocyte (gggg->ggg)
14) Fertilize Egg Cluster 3 (ggg->gg)
15) Morph to Limb (gg->g)
16) Move to Cuddlebeam’s Reef (g->0), Satisfy Restlessness (-4->-5), Take ng as reward (0->ng)
17) Morph to Occelus (ng->n)
18) Scout Card’s Large Rock Outcropping, Satisfy Curiosity (-4->-5), Take bg as reward (n->bgn)
19) Morph to Beak (bgn->bn)
20) Beak Cuddlebeam’s Reef (bn->n), Satisfy Hunger (-4->-5), Take gg as reward (ngg)
21) Morph to Limb (ngg->gg)
22) Move to little Large Rock Outcropping (gg->g), Satisfy Restlessness (-5->-6), Take gg as reward (g->ggg)
23) Move to The Wide Large Rock Outcropping (ggg->gg), Satisfaction (5->4)
24) Move to Brine Pool of Hope (gg->g),  Satisfaction (4->3)

Recalculating Statolith’s Nutrients, will amend it in GNDT once done. TY for pointing it out card, I appreciate it.

Ok, done. I hope.

Actually I fucked up hardcore at 20). Beaking resets Hunger to 0.

We’re at The Wide Large Rock Outcropping, and I’ve got 0 Gonium because Restlessness wouldn’t be the top mood anymore, so I can’t refill myself with it to combo.

So the actions are the same, except there is no 24), because I run out of steam.

Bookkeeping has passed.  You can’t satisfy any moods that are below zero.

Or equal to zero, for that matter!

Oh, true. I didn’t notice.

I don’t know right now what happens though.

Well, each of your attempts was a separate attempt that were each reverted for some reason up until your last one, right?  So since that happened after Bookkeeping passed, I’d say it is illegal too.

It was reverted until action 9), because action 10) was illegal. I think I’ll place everything as it was post-action 9), pre-action 10), because the new action 10) depended on satisfying a negative, which can’t be done, so it would be illegal anyways.

So yeah, back to Sea of Eden then. Recalculating to put everything as it should be.

*It was reverted until action 9), because action 10) was illegal. I think I’ll place everything as it was post-action 9), pre-action 10), because the new action 10) depended on satisfying a negative, which can’t be done (with the new enactment that happened after action 9) and before new action 10)), so it would be illegal anyways.

Seems reasonable.

Alright, GNDT and Map of Habitat have been corrected and are now at a post action 9) state.

TL;DR for those who’d like to catch up:

I performed an attempt of 24 actions (numbered 1-24), which depended on comboing via abusing the “Fulfilling a mood” mechanic. Action 10 was found to be illegal (so the subsequent actions were acting upon an illegal gamestate, so they were illegal as well). So all actions until Action 9 inclusive were legal.

Then, “Bookkeeping” was enacted, which prevented the mood-fulfillment combos to be done. I wasn’t aware, and I attempted a new set of action 10-onwards, which were then found to be illegal because they depended on the mood-fulfillment loophole, which was now newly illegal.

So we had to roll back again to action 9 (us being at the Sea of Eden). And here we are.

I feel like the enactment of “Bookkeeping” was a tactical enactment by derrick to thwart my comboing because it’s very likely that he was aware that I was doing the amendments (he was actually one of the people to point out a flaw during the conversation), there is another proposal ready to be enacted, yet he only enacted the one that specifically harmed what I was trying to do (because it removes the power to combo), precisely when I was in the middle of doing it.

Not much I can do really to prove that it was deliberate aside from the exceptional timing (I’m not even sure myself tbh, aside from what I’ve explained), and even if it was deliberate, it’s not illegal (unless you count “Fair Play” but I think people have had enough of that, so oh well).

If he really wanted to stop you from doing that, he could have enacted Bookkeeping and the two proposals before it long before you even started this particular combo.

True. Perhaps I’m still just a bit paranoid.

Only the oldest proposal can be enacted, so no, I enacted all that I could.

I was prompted to enact that proposal by a comment in this thread about a proposal being three days old.

Yes, there were three proposals that were three days old, and one of them was Bookkeeping.  You could have enacted all three of them earlier today, as long as you did them in order.

Alright, np. Just please don’t do it next time when I announce that I’m trying to fix something (or tell me that you’re going to do it so that I can stop wasting time in recalculating everything). Could’ve just happened for this one time, shrug, that’s alright. But for next time please take it into account.

Looking at the current proposals, all of the ones until “RAID BOSS” can either be failed or enacted since they’ve either reached quorum, have been self-killed or are 2 days old.

Sorry about the mid-correction enactment. It was not intentional: I thought it was all valid at the time. I was not trying to make life more difficult for you.

Yes, Bookkeeping was left open that morning. It can be work to enact a proposal, and I did make use of it not being enacted to move that morning. Then I moved on. I was hoping another admin would pass it.

It’s okay. They were probably hoping the same thing or didn’t notice.

Ty and it’s alright.

ONWARDS TO NOMIC lol

When would be a good time to submit a DoV scam to win? I have an innnsaaaane one lol. It’s so good. But if I submit a DoV, the game is put into Hiatus for at least 12 hours and I don’t want to be a nuisance in case that it doesn’t work (but if it works, oh fucking hell, it’s going to be AMAZING). I believe that a good time to submit the DoV would be right before most of us go to bed, so that most of the Hiatus hours can be just slept out, so that the Hiatus time affects the least amount of playable time people potentially have.

The scam is based on way better wording than my Take-2 scam (which has pretty weak wording in comparison to the other stuff I’ve pulled tbh, not particularly proud), but more esoteric than my recent successful daily negative-mood-combo scams. It’s really bizarre one, because it lets me enact things without needing anyone’s votes. I know. It’s insane, and I can’t wait to try it.

Provisionally, the date I’m going to start it at is March 22nd 04:01 UTC, so that the Hiatus ends (at the soonest) at March 22nd 16:01 UTC. That should allow for the Hiatus to be eaten up by most people’s (in Europe and the US, which I suspect most people here are from) sleep and work time.

Please let me know if there is a better date for this, and I will adjust accordingly. Thank you in advance!

To quote Viv, on your recent CfJ:

It would also be appreciated if you could consider that if you think that a commonly maintained property is vulnerable in some way it’s counterproductive to break it by way of demonstration. It is effective short term, and maybe fun, but in the long run really not the best way. Stop and think, please.

It seems this may not have been fully considered.

Yes, I’ve considered it, which is why I’m actively trying to minimize the impact of what I want to do and asking before attempting it.

I don’t believe that Viv’s request should mean that no DoV based on scams (which is breaking stuff by way of demonstration) should be able to be made. Scamming is a large part of what Nomic is about.

...However, annoying player with Hiatuses isn’t. I don’t mind waiting more time and doing it at a later date, but I’d like to strive to win.

That or I can propose a temporary window where Hiatuses don’t limit anyone’s actions, and do it then, hrmmmmm.

I actually I think I have a great idea for this. I made it into a proposal just now.

Your scam will annoy us probably more than the hiatus will.  We will all vote against your DoV, it will be failed 12 hours later, and we will probably punish you in some way congruent with the Fair Play rule since you posted a DoV to be a pain in the ass.

If you’re going to do it regardless of whether people tell you not to, I’d personally prefer you do it sooner rather than later.

What I think I should do is to just use it as a hail mary play at some moment. I understand that I shouldn’t pull overly invasive scams (like Take-2 was) midgame unless I have a good reason to, however I believe that I should be able to do so at the endgame. I could be wrong though. Please let me know what you think. Here is my reasoning:

If we acknowledge that a valid way to play Nomic is to not the “end” (winning), but the journey, then playing it when the game is about to end anyway should be alright, because I wouldn’t be cutting short that already matured journey at all.

If we acknowledge that a valid way to play Nomic is to attempt to win (without causing too much nuisance), then there should be no qualms in me making that play to attempt to win when the game, because it would be a DoV just like anyone else could DoV. And there would be no long-term consequences from whatever scam it would be because the game would be over regardless.

when the game, => when the game is about to have a victor* typo

This is nomic.  The game is whatever we vote for it to be.  If you don’t win the vote, you can’t change the game.  If you don’t win the vote, you can’t achieve victory.  Any proposal, CFJ, or DoV is a valid move in this nomic, but if you don’t even make a token effort to appeal to the rest of us, they’re ultimately pointless.

Just do whatever you were going to do so we can all vote and/or CFJ away anything you mess up and move on with our lives.

I agree entirely, that’s what consensus reality is.

But I don’t want popularity to become a significant reason for me winning. If average or above average popularity is required to win in the current consensus, then I don’t want to win, shrug. Nomic is fun regardless though.

There really isn’t a point to declaring a DoV right now because no conditions for victory exist; as you saw when you made that one proposal for a victory condition, people thought it was too early. Also a DoV would just put everything on hiatus for no reason and will make people annoyed.

It’s not that popularity will automatically win or fail a DoV or CfJ. They have to follow the rules in a way that people agree with. Someone who isn’t popular would defiantly win a DoV if they unambiguously have the most points and there’s a victory condition saying the player with the most points wins.

(the beauty of the play I want to pull is that I actually don’t need any win condition to exist in the rules beforehand, I can write and make official pretty much any rule I want. Which is bizarre because it goes against the intuitive idea that changes need consensus. You have no idea how hard is it for me to not spill everything about the play right now lol, aahqeqwuqwuegyqeu.)

The one catch is that you need people to vote for such a proposal, it has no power if it’s failed. Almost nobody but the author would vote FOR on a proposal that is essentially “I win.”

Just do whatever it is you want to do and we can tell you why you’re wrong afterwards.

...Also part of the beauty of it is that I actually don’t need votes.

I KNOW IT SOUNDS INSANE LOL.

AAAEWUIEWIUE

But take into account this. We can freely make proposals/CfJs/DoVs, etc, no? You don’t need votes to make those. Lets call those Free Actions (in the sense of Freedom, not $0). Also, there are rules and mechanics in the rules that are automatic. You don’t need votes to have those automatic changes happen either.

WHAT IF

There was a way to somehow trigger an automatic change via a Free Action, and the result of that automatic change would be to have any rule I want, officially added to the ruleset.

That would be totally bonkers lol, but if I could do it, I would’ve been able to circumvent the voting process entirely.

Just post it so we can how you’ve terribly misread the ruleset this time

I deleted a post. Here it was:

Ty card for telling me how to do it.

Sigh.

Idle me pls.

Done. Quorum drops to 6.

We have positive moods again, and can once again engage in satisfying activities.  Except procreation.  If you want to do that you’ll need to become a gland yourself.

@derrick, sorry our scoutings collided. I set Viv’s and your nutrients back under the assumption that my scouting got there first.

Hold on, I’m gonna gland up curiosity so you can scout again and get some nutrients.

Oh, sorry about that.

Still some time to satisfy restlessness with that gonium, otherwise derrick’s gonna have snoozed and losed.

Eh, I’m a nymph now so I don’t think I can transform back since I’m not on the same square as Eve. derrick could do the following:
1 spend d to become limb
2 move and take reward
3 transform to ocellus
4 scout and take reward

Dont wait for me to Scout again.  I’ll find something productive to do. Once I’m off this phone.