Saturday, October 18, 2014

Proposal: Huh, No Kicks?

Times out and passes 3-1. -Bucky

Adminned at 20 Oct 2014 12:56:04 UTC

Amend rule 2.2.1, “Kicking the Ball”, by replacing:

The number of times a Player has Kicked the Ball is tracked in the GNDT but remains at 0 unless a Challenge that includes the phrase “While this Challenge is Active, the number of times a player has Kicked the Ball is tracked in the GNDT” is active.

with:

The number of times a Player has Kicked the Ball is tracked in the GNDT but remains at 0 unless a Challenge that includes the phrase “While this Challenge is Active, the number of times a player has Kicked the Ball since the Challenge started is tracked in the GNDT” is active.

Amend rule 2.18.1, “Passing”, by replacing:

The first Player to have Kicked the Ball 5 times wins this Challenge.

with:

The first Player to have Kicked the Ball 5 times after this Challenge becomes active wins the Challenge.

If, at the time this Proposal was submitted, a Player has won a Challenge, make the unique minimal change to the Gamestate which revokes the Player’s Challenge victory.

This is the quickest fix I could think of. A better fix would be nice. I’m not sure this completely fixes things, actually…

Comments

ayesdeeef:

10-18-2014 23:52:37 UTC

Since the number of times the player has kicked the ball is already tracked in the GNDT, it would be so much better to just fix the second sentence to read the first player to have kicked the ball five times since this challenge became active has won the challenge. Incidentally, we should also change “is tracked in the GNDT” in the first sentence to “is tracked in the GNDT in the subsection Kicks” to make that implicit. As things stand, I should probably blank everyone’s kicks field in the GNDT and start keeping track of everyone’s Kicks privately until a Proposal is passed to make that implicit. I’ll ponder whether I actually want to do that :D The last line does not work at all. What if someone gets an honest victory before your Proposal triggers? You should have figured how many kicks everyone had since the Challenge was opened and said to reset to that when the Proposal passed.

The point is, those two specific changes that I mentioned will completely clean up everything with no hassle. All you would have to do is change “While this Challenge is Active, the number of times a player has Kicked the Ball since the Challenge started is tracked in the GNDT. The first Player to have Kicked the Ball 5 times wins this Challenge.” to “While this Challenge is Active, the number of times a player has Kicked the Ball since the Challenge started is tracked in the GNDT in the section entitled ‘Kicks’. The first Player to have Kicked the Ball 5 times since this Challenge became active wins this Challenge.” against because I’m confused about whether everything I just said is accurate and I should therefore Veto. If someone clears up my doubts and I feel that this Proposal should be Vetoed, I will go ahead and do so.

Thanks E for your Proposal. I hope you understand the implicit message that no hating on Proposals is anything personal.

Eritivus:

10-19-2014 02:10:12 UTC

Hmm. The situation is not very clear to me. I’ll try to respond a bit and give some of my interpretation of the current situation.

First, as to “What if someone gets an honest victory before your Proposal triggers?”, I explicitly put “at the time this Proposal was submitted” to handle that. The point is that I’m not sure whether someone has won the Challenge already (at the current time) or not. If someone has, I attempt to undo that so things stay the way we thought they were.

Second, you say “You should have figured how many kicks everyone had since the Challenge was opened and said to reset to that when the Proposal passed”. I actually considered putting a “fix the kicks” instruction in, but this is roughly what I ended up with:

“Set the number of times each player has Kicked the Ball since the current Challenge started to number of times that player has Kicked the Ball since the Challenge started.”

(Below, I will abbreviate “the number of times each player has Kicked the Ball since the current Challenge started” by “TNOTEPHKTBSTCCS”.)

This is obviously an unnecessary instruction. We have been correctly (if not legally) tracking TNOTEPHKTBSTCCS in the GNDT. It is true that the rules accidentally specify that the value in the GNDT should remain at 0 now, but once that mistake is fixed, it would be legal for anyone to update the GNDT to the values we want them to be at (TNOTEPHKTBSTCCS), without a proposal to that effect. The misquotation mistake in the rule had no effect, I think, on the actual Gamestate fact of TNOTEPHKTBSTCCS (which is a different thing than the bits of text on the GNDT website).

If, though, we interpret “remains at 0” in the current rules as applying to TNOTEPHKTBSTCCS, not the value in the GNDT, then I’m not sure what to make of that. My guess is that would just be a contradiction. I think the Challenge text has some precedence over this rule text, since the Challenge has the more specific “while this Challenge is active” (in case that matters… not sure). Anyway, I’ve been assuming “remains at 0” applies to the value in the GNDT, not to TNOTEPHKTBSTCCS.

That’s all I’ve got for now. Hoped that made some sense.

Sprucial:

10-19-2014 02:15:36 UTC

against I was the first person to start tracking my kicks, and I did it after the challenge had started. Plus, I’m the closest to victory, an honest one, and I’m not liking that last clause.

Eritivus:

10-19-2014 02:22:09 UTC

I don’t think it matters that you were the first to start tracking—the rule says “The first Player to have Kicked the Ball 5 times wins this Challenge.” Perhaps someone (you?) has already Kicked the Ball 5 times? I don’t think whether we were tracking it has anything to do with that question.

The Proposal says “at the time this Proposal was submitted”, and it only “revokes the Player’s Challenge victory”, it doesn’t “revoke all of the Player’s Challenge victories”. So if you win an honest victory, and then this enacted, you will keep your honest victory. You just won’t keep your accidental one ;).

Sprucial:

10-19-2014 02:42:02 UTC

Okay, I gotcha. I read submitted as enacted and missed the whole point of the proposal.
for

ayesdeeef:

10-19-2014 03:27:13 UTC

Everything tracked in the GNDT is definitely separate from the Gamestate, though it is often separate but equal.

I understand now. You intentionally said “Submitted” because you weren’t sure. That makes more sense to me.

Fix the kicks: Very good. You demonstrate a clear understanding of the changes that are taking place and I must say that I am persuaded. Now I must ask for your opinion - do you think the core rules should be expanded so that the GNDT is part of the Gamestate for this particular question of what can we change whenever we feel like?

Interpretations: Your assumption is correct. Therefore, there is no contradiction.

Point of Contention: I see no harm in adding a clause that says that the Kicks section of each player’s GNDT should be exactly the number of Kicks they have in the Challenge. However, you’re changes make sense and this clause can be added separately.

Everything happy now? I hope I answered your questions about interpretations and Gamestate and I also hope that every player is on the same page in our understanding of the Ruleset and Gamestate. If anyone is confused, please ask questions! These questions need to be resolved sooner rather than becoming CFJs later.

I’m going to sleep because I’ve got a freaking headache now. Thanks E. :))

ayesdeeef:

10-19-2014 03:27:58 UTC

BTW, this is not a competition to see who can make the longest comments. Thanks for your cooperation :D

Bucky:

10-20-2014 19:54:23 UTC

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