Thursday, February 16, 2012

Call for Judgment: Negative fame

Adminned at 19 Feb 2012 18:40:46 UTC

From rule 3.3.1: “Unless otherwise specified, game variables defined to hold numeric values can hold only non-negative integers, and any action that would set those values below zero is an illegal action unless explicitly otherwise stated in the ruleset.” Therefore, the current value of Josh’s Fame stat is illegal.

To correct that, rewrite the first paragraph of rule “Fame”, so it reads: “Each Musician has an integer stat called “Fame” which is initially zero and can hold either positive, zero or negative values.”

If proposal http://blognomic.com/archive/exact_randomness_iii/ is pending, change the first paragraph of the text it changes in rule “Fame”, so it reads: “Each Musician has an integer stat called “Fame” which is initially zero and can hold either positive, zero or negative values.”

Set Josh’s Fame stat to -1. Make legal the action(s) which made Josh’s Fame stat negative.

1-5. ~~ChronosPhaenon

Comments

Josh:

02-16-2012 15:33:37 UTC

against Frankly I would rather like to benefit from the poorly written rule.

Clucky:

02-16-2012 15:58:34 UTC

against Unnecessary. Stating it is an integer is enough to “otherwise specify” that it can be negative, because integers can be negative by definition.

Cpt_Koen:

02-17-2012 00:20:30 UTC

against I agree with Clucky - which is precisely why I set Josh’s Fame to -1 in the first place.

Moreover, if that was really illegal, wouldn’t that only mean that Josh’s Fame should be 0 instead of -1?* In which case I wouldn’t support setting it back to -1.


* I’m not sure about that. Maybe it would mean me resolving the Tour was illegal, and the Tour should still be pending? In which case the cfj is welcome, since I cannot properly undo my actions when those actions involve style revelations.

ChronosPhaenon:

02-17-2012 01:10:13 UTC

The way I see it, saying they are integer just restricts the set of numbers you can have (not rational ones, not real ones, etc.). IMO, it doesn’t expand the set, because it doesn’t “***explicitly*** otherwise states” that negatives are allowed. You guys are reading an implied meaning in “integer”, not a explicit one.

As I see it, the Tour resolution was illegal, an this CfJ is intended to make it retroactively legal, in the least harmful way, i.e. by retconning it.

Clucky:

02-17-2012 01:55:58 UTC

“game variables defined to hold **numeric values** can hold only non-negative integers”

So if I just say “Fame is tracked as a value in the GNDT”, then that rule kicks in at states its a non-negative integer.

It doesn’t say “unless explitiy stated otherwise”, it just says “Unless otherwise specified”. “Integer” is enough to otherwise specify that it can be negative.

ChronosPhaenon:

02-17-2012 02:19:21 UTC

I see your point, I just don’t agree with it. Anyways, if this CfJ doesn’t pass, I feel we need to clarify 3.3.1.

Bucky:

02-17-2012 02:42:28 UTC

for  *sigh*

Kevan:

02-17-2012 11:10:02 UTC

against Per Clucky. The current value is not illegal, and setting it to -1 may undo any Fame changes that occur between now and this CfJ enacting.

Greytyphoon:

02-19-2012 15:28:00 UTC

against Per Clucky. Integer means a positive or negative value (unless I missed something in the glossary).

From Wikipedia: The integers are formed by the natural numbers (including 0) (0, 1, 2, 3, ...) together with the negatives of the non-zero natural numbers (−1, −2, −3, ...).