this feels like a reasonable interpretation of the rules even if I disagree about how the accruement works and also am completely worn out by this dynasty that for the most part I really don’t care what happens anymore

I do also think we need clarity in the rules about when “changes” occur

i like the resetting of the witching hour, since i can’t reasonably take any course of action until i figure out what my influence total is and whether i have a shot at this or not, but i think that if dirt is dirt fails this one shouldn’t include the remove 25 influence clause! at that point the agreed-upon ruling would be that enthrallment can still claim influence from a sepulchre-less vampire lord

I don’t think that a failed CfJ in this case would imply a positive sentiment to any specific position; I think of you wanted to assert that a ruling had clearly demonstrated support for that position then a CfJ would have to pass on that basis. I’m not against that CfJ being posted; this is just my way through the thicket but you should feel free to put your preferred flavour up and argue its merits as well.

does “Remove 25 Influence from Lemon” actually work? I’m not sure it does. “Lemon” is not a vampire lord.

This should remove two favours owed by Jumble to lemonfanta (which were incurred in order to add Jumble’s names to the Glyphs), in addition to fixing lemonfanta’s name.

Err, one favour. It isn’t removing Jumble from the Alchemist’s Lab glyph.

So we’ve got three words here, “changes” and “accure” and “gain”

1) When does a Vampire Lord’s influence actually change? Is it only when the atomic action is completed; is it when a step is completed (so Jumble, Lemon and myself getting influence from a glyph is one change); or is it an individual step (Jumble gaining influence is a change)

The other CfJ failing seems to have ruled out the second option. But its unclear to me if its the first one or the third.

2) Now can you accure stuff before it changes? Seems like maybe you can, and accurement is essentially the process of building up influence that will change. If that is the case, then lemon should get the influence. On the other hand, if it also only applies once at the end of the atomic action than the resolution is clear (Jumble gained influence during the atomic action, had it set to 0 by the atomic action, and thus there was nothing for lemon to gain)

I’m really honestly not sure. “The value only actually changes once” makes sense to me based upon how atomic actions are worded, but I also worry what future complications arguing that might entail. But I think answering that question is probably the first step in unwinding this mess.

I’m really not seeing any meaningful distinction between “accruing” and “gaining” Influence.

If the rules are genuinely ambiguous, the majority will resolve it as it wishes. Tactically I’d prefer Jumble’s Influence to be lost rather than go to Lemonfanta, right now, and I think that’s also supported by how most people were expecting the rule to work (as Josh said himself in his comment at the end of the Expedition).

If the path of Jumble’s Influence was a scam that you thought was clearer in the ruleset, bad luck for it not being. If it was a scam that you realised was knife-edge ambiguous and were hoping might pass without scrutiny, or with support from players outside your group, I guess we’ll see.

I don’t think that there is any “unwinding this mess” in situ. Happy to argue the toss about what words mean all day but I’d like to get the dynasty moving again and this is a minimum viable comprise.

i’m fine making this compromise

@Kevan when do you think the change in Jumble’s influence occurs? During the action, or once the action is complete?

If lemon’s okay with it.

as lemon is okay with it