Monday, July 26, 2021

Call for Judgment: When Life Gives You Jumble, Make Lemonaid [Pressing]

quorum reached. passes 5-1—Clucky

Adminned at 28 Jul 2021 04:17:13 UTC

If Call for Judgment: Dirt is Dirt, Dust is Dust 2.0 [Pressing] has been enacted, this CfJ does nothing. If it is still pending, fail it.

If Call for Judgment: Agree to Disagree [Pressing] has been failed, this does nothing. If it still pending, enact it.

Uphold the stat changes made at the conclusion of the Enter the Crypt action described as Richardo’s Sixteenth Expedition in their entirety.

Remove 25 Influence from Lemonfanta. If Jumble has a Glyph in the Library of Souls, remove it, unless other Vampire Lords are also named on the glyph, in which case remove Jumble’s name from it. In the rule Vampire Lords, after the text “changes which would increase their Influence”, add “(including changes which would accrue to their Enthraller)”.

If the Witching Hour is within 24 hours of the time of the enactment of this CfJ, extend Witching Hour by 24 hours. If Witching Hour is in the past when this CfJ is enacted, wind the clock.

Similar to Agree to Disagree: a CfJ asserting that the rules behaved in an expected way, with no funny business. The competing priorities drawn out in Dirt is Dirt probably can’t be resolved in the pressure cooker of a tactical environment, and certainly not with a bunch of ticking clocks, so it seems wisest to me to fix the proximate error and let play continue on the basis that everything behaved the way that it was expected to.


Clucky: he/him

26-07-2021 21:32:23 UTC

this feels like a reasonable interpretation of the rules even if I disagree about how the accruement works and also am completely worn out by this dynasty that for the most part I really don’t care what happens anymore

Clucky: he/him

26-07-2021 21:52:38 UTC

I do also think we need clarity in the rules about when “changes” occur

lemon: she/her

26-07-2021 22:16:17 UTC

i like the resetting of the witching hour, since i can’t reasonably take any course of action until i figure out what my influence total is and whether i have a shot at this or not, but i think that if dirt is dirt fails this one shouldn’t include the remove 25 influence clause! at that point the agreed-upon ruling would be that enthrallment can still claim influence from a sepulchre-less vampire lord

Josh: he/they

26-07-2021 22:29:54 UTC

I don’t think that a failed CfJ in this case would imply a positive sentiment to any specific position; I think of you wanted to assert that a ruling had clearly demonstrated support for that position then a CfJ would have to pass on that basis. I’m not against that CfJ being posted; this is just my way through the thicket but you should feel free to put your preferred flavour up and argue its merits as well.

Clucky: he/him

26-07-2021 22:47:15 UTC

does “Remove 25 Influence from Lemon” actually work? I’m not sure it does. “Lemon” is not a vampire lord.


26-07-2021 23:59:00 UTC

This should remove two favours owed by Jumble to lemonfanta (which were incurred in order to add Jumble’s names to the Glyphs), in addition to fixing lemonfanta’s name.


27-07-2021 00:19:39 UTC

Err, one favour. It isn’t removing Jumble from the Alchemist’s Lab glyph.

Lulu: she/her

27-07-2021 16:38:10 UTC


Clucky: he/him

27-07-2021 17:08:45 UTC

So we’ve got three words here, “changes” and “accure” and “gain”

1) When does a Vampire Lord’s influence actually change? Is it only when the atomic action is completed; is it when a step is completed (so Jumble, Lemon and myself getting influence from a glyph is one change); or is it an individual step (Jumble gaining influence is a change)

The other CfJ failing seems to have ruled out the second option. But its unclear to me if its the first one or the third.

2) Now can you accure stuff before it changes? Seems like maybe you can, and accurement is essentially the process of building up influence that will change. If that is the case, then lemon should get the influence. On the other hand, if it also only applies once at the end of the atomic action than the resolution is clear (Jumble gained influence during the atomic action, had it set to 0 by the atomic action, and thus there was nothing for lemon to gain)

I’m really honestly not sure. “The value only actually changes once” makes sense to me based upon how atomic actions are worded, but I also worry what future complications arguing that might entail. But I think answering that question is probably the first step in unwinding this mess.

Kevan: City he/him

27-07-2021 18:14:43 UTC

I’m really not seeing any meaningful distinction between “accruing” and “gaining” Influence.

If the rules are genuinely ambiguous, the majority will resolve it as it wishes. Tactically I’d prefer Jumble’s Influence to be lost rather than go to Lemonfanta, right now, and I think that’s also supported by how most people were expecting the rule to work (as Josh said himself in his comment at the end of the Expedition).

If the path of Jumble’s Influence was a scam that you thought was clearer in the ruleset, bad luck for it not being. If it was a scam that you realised was knife-edge ambiguous and were hoping might pass without scrutiny, or with support from players outside your group, I guess we’ll see.


Josh: he/they

27-07-2021 18:15:06 UTC

I don’t think that there is any “unwinding this mess” in situ. Happy to argue the toss about what words mean all day but I’d like to get the dynasty moving again and this is a minimum viable comprise.

lemon: she/her

27-07-2021 19:01:24 UTC

for i’m fine making this compromise

Clucky: he/him

27-07-2021 19:17:55 UTC

@Kevan when do you think the change in Jumble’s influence occurs? During the action, or once the action is complete?

Brendan: he/him

28-07-2021 01:04:42 UTC

for If lemon’s okay with it.

Clucky: he/him

28-07-2021 04:14:52 UTC

for as lemon is okay with it