Wednesday, May 12, 2021

Proposal: Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International

3-7 is fewer than quorum not voting against. Failed by pokes.

Adminned at 13 May 2021 12:38:47 UTC

If Proposal: Art Makes The World Go Round and Proposal: Picking Favorites were not enacted then this proposal does nothing.

Otherwise, to the end of the rule Art Submissions, add

A Sourcer may only submit a piece of art as a submission if they hold the rights to it, if it is in the public domain, or if it has been shared under a licence that allows it to be hosted on the BlogNomic wiki. Every Submission must include a statement detailing the licencing situation of the piece of art that is included within it. The Collector may determine that a Submission is not valid if it is not compliant with the restrictions set out in this paragraph, or is no licensing statement is included.

Then, in the rule Unveiling Art, change

For each valid Art Submission sent in the previous round, add the picture (reuploaded to the wiki, potentially scaled down in size with aspect ratios preserved to meet size requirements) along with its title to the newly created Gallery page. If multiple pictures have the same title, they should be given postfixes of (1), (2), (3), etc… in order to disambiguate them. Valid Submissions should be processed in a secretly random order.

to

For each valid Art Submission sent in the previous round, add the picture (reuploaded to the wiki, potentially scaled down in size with aspect ratios preserved to meet size requirements) along with its title and licencing statement to the newly created Gallery page. If multiple pictures have the same title, they should be given postfixes of (1), (2), (3), etc… in order to disambiguate them. Valid Submissions should be processed in a secretly random order.

Comments

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 16:18:39 UTC

” in the public domain, or if it has been shared under a licence that allows it to be hosted on the BlogNomic wiki” feels a bit intimidating for players. I don’t know what licenses are allowed to be hosted on the wiki. And I also don’t know how to tell if something I find on the internet is in the public domain or not.

Josh: Observer he/they

12-05-2021 16:37:05 UTC

Almost every gallery has licence information alongside images (eg https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/sargent-carnation-lily-lily-rose-n01615)

I just don’t see that there’s a neater way around this problem.

Lulu: she/her

12-05-2021 16:45:11 UTC

There’s a filter on Google for copyright stuff.

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 16:48:46 UTC

Is there Jumble? That is good to know.

Creative Commons does sometimes need sourcing. Maybe we should require sourcers to include the source of their image, and then can include a link to the source from the gallery?

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 16:49:54 UTC

note that I can’t fix this in my proposal because it could clash here. But I can hold off on starting a round until we’ve got the issue resolved.

Kevan: he/him

12-05-2021 16:51:00 UTC

“a licence that allows it to be hosted on the BlogNomic wiki” does seem like a tough call, even for someone who deeply understands the licence. Is the BlogNomic wiki definitely non-commercial use? Will we definitely not be creating any derivatives later in the game? Will we be crediting artists and relicencing sharealike, to meet the requirements of CC licences? If an image’s copyright is stated as having expired in its source country, does that also apply to wherever the BlogNomic server is located?

A neater approach would be the one we took last dynasty: to find a nice, big corpus of valid images, and say to only use that. So maybe anything from within https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Paintings that explicitly includes the phrase “This work is in the public domain in the United States” in its description page.

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 16:56:24 UTC

A corpus of valid images feels more limiting than the original dynasty idea. Pictures of “art” in the formal sense were always intended to be legal submissions, but so were memes. Or drawings people did themselves. or whatever.

that being said, copyright stuff might force our hand here a bit

pokes:

12-05-2021 17:01:16 UTC

Not putting an icon down now but “if it has been shared under a licence that allows it to be hosted on the BlogNomic wiki” is fine by me. If it makes people too nervous to use something more restrictive than CC-0, good, more original art for the dynasty!

Kevan: he/him

12-05-2021 17:08:27 UTC

I think the most pressing copyright issue is that this this server doesn’t belong to any of us, it’s owned and paid for by 75th Trombone, and we don’t know their take on hosting copyrighted content, nor how strict their server host’s usage policy is. 75th shouldn’t have to deal with a takedown notice years from now because an artist has noticed that we’re hosting a copy of their work uncredited under the wrong title, or breaking some term of its CC-licence.

I’d be fine with an existing-paintings-only dynasty, or an even more restrictive subset of that. Constraints are always a good thing for game design.

(Looking around other galleries, for what it’s worth, https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search seems good - it looks like if you tick the “Open Access” box when searching, you only get guaranteed public domain images back.)

pokes:

12-05-2021 17:19:56 UTC

Your point about not putting this on 75th makes me think: the actual law might bind tight enough already that it’s not something the Ruleset has to be concerned about. Any of us could already use the wiki as an illegal filehost, but we don’t in part out of deference to the law. We could just expect that to flow backwards to Clucky not using the wiki as an illegal filehost, and back from there to players not causing Clucky to do so, with CfJs covering cases as needed.

I’m a strong against vote for constraining the drawings to a whitelist.

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 17:37:54 UTC

how would people feel about the gallery containing links to images so they aren’t hosted on 75ths servers?

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 17:39:36 UTC

then its imgurs problem and worst case scenario stuff gets taken down midround and we need to CfJ something but no legal issues XD

pokes:

12-05-2021 17:44:41 UTC

I’d only request that it’s not imgur, which for some reason doesn’t load right in my browser.

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 17:49:51 UTC

ah yeah that might quickly become a problem as I donno what else supports image uploads like that.

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 17:53:51 UTC

I assume the urls load fine for you pokes, just the gallery pages?

pokes:

12-05-2021 17:55:42 UTC

Alls I know is I’ll see links to and I’ll click and it does some stuff and then renders a fully gray background with nothing else.

pokes:

12-05-2021 17:56:26 UTC

that was supposed to be

https://imgur.com/yaddayadda.jpg

, that EE took to mean I wanted to embed it.

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 17:58:24 UTC

wait EE embeds images for us? hrm…

pokes:

12-05-2021 17:58:55 UTC

Well, now imgur works fine?? I don’t know if they changed something but trying out some i.imgur.com URLs works.

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 17:59:08 UTC

Do you just paste the link?

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 18:00:02 UTC

Interesting.

So what if rather than the gallery being a wiki page, the gallery is a blog post. And then I just add all the images submitted as comments on the blog post?

pokes:

12-05-2021 18:07:03 UTC

nice

Kevan: he/him

12-05-2021 18:11:32 UTC

Hosting elsewhere is better, although it’s a shame that the dynasty won’t have a guaranteed permanent archive when it’s over. And I’d push for a rule of at least crediting any living artists that we’re lifting work from.

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 18:24:38 UTC

yeah I think a credit option is definitely a good call

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 19:13:58 UTC

there are better ways we should fix this

against

Zack: he/him

12-05-2021 19:15:40 UTC

imperial

pokes:

12-05-2021 19:27:33 UTC

for

Kevan: he/him

12-05-2021 20:03:52 UTC

for, given that it’s either this or a strong informal (and ignorable) request for the first round, while the ruleset says to put images received onto the wiki.

Raven1207: he/they

12-05-2021 20:05:29 UTC

against

Clucky: he/him

12-05-2021 20:13:58 UTC

@Kevan images will not be uploaded to the wiki until the second round. meaning we have time to start the first round, have people submit images, and in the meantime switch up how the gallery works before the second round starts

however, were this to pass the “it is in the public domain, or if it has been shared under a licence that allows it to be hosted on the BlogNomic wiki” requirement would remain, and potentially effect people’s ability to submit images

Snisbo: she/they

12-05-2021 20:57:30 UTC

against Agree with Clucky, we have time to fix it, and there are better options. I think hosting the images elsewhere is probably the best bet, and if we want an archive, at the end of the dynasty, someone can go through and check all of the art and add what’s viable to a page on the wiki. As long as everyone tries to keep it to things that won’t be an issue, we should be fine anyway, this is just a backup to be safe.

Janet: she/her

12-05-2021 21:40:39 UTC

imperial

Clucky: he/him

13-05-2021 03:49:58 UTC

one more test:

Clucky: he/him

13-05-2021 03:50:09 UTC

uh oh

Tofuna:

13-05-2021 05:56:35 UTC

In light of Clucky’s proposal to fix this by just uploading it to a third-party website against

Darknight: he/him

13-05-2021 12:06:33 UTC

imperial