No

*sigh*

I wanted to write the CfJ. ;(

not the best introduction for me here…

Sorry, BlogNomic players who oppose this. But this dynasty looks doomed to failure (I was the only person who got maximum acclaim in the first two weeks, which means that everyone else wasn’t really trying to win, and the entire game seemed likely to peter out before there was a win condition), and a new one could be potentially interesting, and I’d try to make it a success.

per Kevan.

Folowing Kevin’s lead. 

Who’s Michael Walsh?

following Kevan’s lead.

Note that I have (I’ve been told) broken a rule by changing my screen name. I figure that two wrongs don’t make a right, aye?

What was your name before, Tavros?

This is suspiciously reminiscent of semi-recent events in Austria.

This is suspiciously reminiscent of semi-recent events in Austria.

=P

Roujo: your vote doesn’t count; you are idle.

Well I had asked to be unidled here (http://blognomic.com/archive/reactivation/), but apparently that post was missed by all admins. Now that Darth_Cliche unidled me for real, I vote . =)

15 - 
15 - 

Close match…

It is. This is crazy exciting.

*grabs popcorn*

Hmm. BNScript gives 15-13, not 15-15.

True. Time to count. =P

From what I’m counting, this CfJ is currently at 15 FOR - 16 AGAINST. Feel free to recount, though. =)

I have been informed that since Brownie isn’t a player, this post is currently standing at 15-15. My apologies. =)

Correction. With flurie, that’s 15-16. I’m going to stop counting now. =P

CoV. Long live BlogCalvinball.

14-15. -_-’

I have to stop counting when I’m too sleepy.

CoV, let’s just end this already.

Here’s my current count:

Quorum is 20.

FOR (15)
ais523
comex
coppro
Darth Cliche
dupdog
eelpout
monqy
Murphy
Pavitra
pikhq
Roujo
Sgeo
Tavros Nitram
Yally
zuff

AGAINST (15)
Amnistar
Blorg
Brendan
Bucky
digibomber
flurie
Ienpw III
Kevan
lazerchik
Libby
Ornithopter
Seventy-Fifth Trombone
Shadowclaw
southpointingchariot
Soviet Brendon

ABSTAIN (8)
Agora Nomic
bateleur
CWW
Darknight
Doctor29
Prince Anduril
Winner
Wooble

lazerchik’s vote was invalid as it happened several minutes before registration

(link to http://blognomic.com/archive/okay_look/ for more context as to why I believe this should be voted for)

Seriously guys. The fact that Seventy-Fifth Trombone, Kevan, Bucky, Amnistar, Brendan, and Ienpw III are all against this should say *a lot*.

I wouldn’t expect any different, but I’d appreciate if you’d would evaluate it on the merits rather than appeal to authority.

Clucky: Can you please read coppro’s comment on the matter? It is easy to jump to conclusions, but the state of the game when this CfJ was first posted is *very* different to where we are at now.

Well spotted, coppro.

Clucky’s vote brings it to 15-15, with 9 no-votes. Quorum is still 20.

Fine, if you want.

> This was not originally intended to be a massive Agora vs. BlogNomic extravaganza. BlogNomic had gotten itself into a constitutional crisis (although apparently some players still disagree on this point, the fact is that it spent several weeks without gameplay). A large part of the thought was that it would be fun and it would solve BlogNomic’s problem at the same time.

Did Blognomic and its members ask Agora to solve its problems? Nomics interfering with other nomics honestly sounds like a terrible idea. Someone who dislikes Agora for whatever reason should be able to enjoy Blognomic and vice verse.

> I’m not upset—-and I don’t think anyone else is either—-that the ‘invasion’ was resisted. It’s part of the fun. You don’t go playing capture the flag expecting the other side to let you waltz and grab the flag. The hope, however, was that everyone would shake hands afterwards and get on to playing BlogNomic no matter what happened.

I’m not upset that you my punching you in the balls was resisted. It’s part of the fun.

> I state with bias that I believe that there are other reasons this should be adopted. If it is, it will encourage Agorans to play BlogNomic and BlogNomickers to play Agora. This is only good for both games. Cross-pollination would benefit both Nomics immensely, as any seasoned Nomicker knows that more players is only a good thing.

No, it isn’t. Having some cross-pollination is good. But you know what happens when you screw your sister? You’ll probably wind up with a retard. Its okay for nomics to have some common members, but too many and they’ll wind up being redundant and self similar.

> A few people think of this as being a terrible travesty of giving Agora an undeserved victory. I disagree. For starters, the CFJ doesn’t actually award Agora a win. But more than that, I don’t think it’s worth putting too much stock in dynasties. We’ve had some dynasties in the past that I think were much less-deserved than this, especially ones started by enactment rather than victory. We’ve also had people put in charge of dynasties simply because they were there and the emperor wasn’t. In the end, let’s try not to put too much stock into dynasties. They’re fun and all, but it doesn’t really matter.

Its not giving Agora the victory that we’re pissed about, its putting Agora in charge of our nomic. If you wanna say “Agora wins, Canada won Agora so he’ll be the new emperor” go ahead. Just don’t try and control our nomic through your nomic - thats what we’re rebelling against.

> One last note: Agora is a slow game. I don’t expect that an Agoran dynasty will vary much from a meta, and it will probably be much more interesting.

If Agora is slow won’t that just make blognomic slow?

> Its okay for nomics to have some common members, but too many and they’ll wind up being redundant and self similar.

This is likely to be a very temporary thing, and they are very different games.

> Its not giving Agora the victory that we’re pissed about, its putting Agora in charge of our nomic. If you wanna say “Agora wins, Canada won Agora so he’ll be the new emperor” go ahead. Just don’t try and control our nomic through your nomic - thats what we’re rebelling against.

It’s hardly control, just a rather slow veto, and a theme.

> If Agora is slow won’t that just make blognomic slow?

No.  It just means that most of the time there won’t be any vetos.

> Did Blognomic and its members ask Agora to solve its problems? Nomics interfering with other nomics honestly sounds like a terrible idea. Someone who dislikes Agora for whatever reason should be able to enjoy Blognomic and vice verse.

This was an opportune moment because it was less rude. Invading at an active moment in a more coordinated fashion (trying to get a quorum very quickly to pass a CFJ) would have been more likely to succeed, but would have inflicted actual damage to BlogNomic. Like any core rules scam (and this is a scam!), it should be executed with careful timing since it can be used for good and not evil.

> No, it isn’t. Having some cross-pollination is good. But you know what happens when you screw your sister? You’ll probably wind up with a retard. Its okay for nomics to have some common members, but too many and they’ll wind up being redundant and self similar.

No, because the culture is different enough. Agora is slow-moving and not dynastic. BlogNomic is dynamic and dynastic.

> Its not giving Agora the victory that we’re pissed about, its putting Agora in charge of our nomic. If you wanna say “Agora wins, Canada won Agora so he’ll be the new emperor” go ahead. Just don’t try and control our nomic through your nomic - thats what we’re rebelling against.

As I said, it’s more symbolic than anything. And there’s no reason BlogNomic couldn’t, in turn, be Speaker of Agora at some point. Heck, a proposal to that effect would have a reasonable shot at passing right now. Wouldn’t it be fun if both nomics were the figureheads in charge of the other?

>If Agora is slow won’t that just make blognomic slow?

No more than any meta.

It still sets a bad president. As does sending all your goons here to sign up you could pass it through. Its blatant sock puppetry and is probably the worst nomic sin someone could commit.

The rule described here may not work as expected because it does not say that Agora refers to a player’s name.  It does say that it refers to the name of a nomic, but that is not sufficient to satisfy rule 3.3.5 if Agora is also a player.

Clucky: I’ll let coppro and comex respond more fully, but I’ll note that BN hasn’t exactly refrained from recruiting.

Sorry, I should clarify that last point for people not familiar with Agora. Agora is slow because, assuming everyone does their jobs, proposals can take anywhere from five days to five weeks to get through the system, although both extremes are rare and two or three weeks is the norm. Proposals are distributed in bunches, and often require more than a majority for adoption. Large changes are discussed before even being proposed, much less voted on.

By contrast, BlogNomic enacts proposals in two days or less. It’s quickly-moving and a dynasty can be over in the time it can take Agora to enact a proposal.

Agora presently has no means to interact with BlogNomic. So at the very least, BlogNomic would be free from Agoran control until the first batch of proposals made it through.

Thus, a pseudo-metadynasty with Agora in charge would not significantly affect BlogNomic gameplay.

Josh: do you have a response to the many paragraphs written so far about the game in its current state? Obviously you have a right to your vote, but I really think the other perspective should be gained here.

Bucky: it does explicitly refer to it as a player since it says “Agora ... is a player”

Zuff. There is a huge difference between talking to old players and getting them to unidle and setting up new accounts. Duh.

it does not explicitly refer to “Agora” as a player’s name though.

Clucky: both sides did both of those things.

@Zuff: I don’t want to play Agora. If BlogNomic becomes Agora then I will stop playing it. My vote is pragmatic, not rules-based.

@Josh: It’s not *becoming* Agora. It’s simply having Agora as a single, really slow-acting player.

Given the choice between recruiting and surrender, I have no issue with recruiting.

@pikhq And emperor. And, on current form, about half of the active player list, meaning a blocking vote for purposes of quorum.

@Ornithopter: This isn’t about factions any more. Seriously. There is no more shadowy conspiracy; Agora doesn’t give half a damn about invasion. This is about cleaning up the mess BlogNomic is in—sure, that we have partly created.

But it is about cleaning up the mess. Please, read coppro’s comment. There is a reasonable course of action here devoid of nomic jingoism.

I definitely don’t want to turn BlogNomic into Agora.

Agora’s a rather boring lot.

Well it’s fun to have a reunion, at least.

Blognomic can fix itself, it always has before. Agora’s got its own nomic.

Qwazukee: It’s getting rather old pointing people to coppro’s comment—but this _is_ fixing BlogNomic. All the other options introduce excess delays and uncertainty for no reason; this is the best option we have right now to get the game back on track.

I think this sets a record for how quickly a scam has gotten people burnt out.  The hotter, the shorter, I suppose…

[zuff] This CfJ was twelve hours and a couple of votes away from passing when Agora decided to come and “fix” BlogNomic for us. It will likely pass in three hours, and the problem we were having of not being able to make proposals will be fixed.

This invasion has been entertaining to watch from the sidelines, and is obviously legal according to the rules, but I don’t really see the point (apart from the amusement derived from this mess, of course, which I suppose could be reason enough). Blognomic is perfectly capable of solving the problem on its own, and was close to doing so when this happened.

Also, even if this passes, I imagine (and hope) that the “Foreign Relations” rule will be summarily repealed as soon as agora loses its majority.

That is a point of disagreement, of course.  I think zuff is the only one who would consider this “the best way to fix the art problem” rather than “a nice direction to take when coming out of the crisis”.

Kevan: This is no longer about Agora fixing BlogNomic and people’s insistence that it is based on perceived factions is getting pretty old; yes, undoubtedly this was a scam and an invasion to start with, and certainly it is still the product of a scam; but it’s also quite objectively the quickest way to fix BN, independent of its origins.

Anyway, that CfJ still allows ais’ original scam, which puts us back at square one, as ais is in favour of enacting an Agoran dynasty. So I don’t see how that’s an alternative option.

Purplebeard, I would consider that a true shame - I hope that most of those who disagree with the invasion would still consider it a valid scam win if it passes, and would be willing to tolerate Agorans for the length of a dynasty.  “Undo that thing that just passed” is not an interesting counter-scam.

But I know nothing and represent no one.  I’m just an old scamster…

[zuff] I don’t believe that it reenables Ais’s scam (and he apparently doesn’t either). And a fix proposal without the “also repeal all your rules and have an Agora dynasty” clause would be objectively quicker, because people who didn’t want to end the dynasty would be able to vote for it.

Good night.  Things have been pretty quiet over the last six hours, but by the time I wake up, activity will be on an upswing, the clock will be rounding out the first day, and this will probably be over.  This dynasty can only start one way, and the invasion is unlikely to be repeated, so it is time to commit my one and only chance to fate.

Just for: “Fail all other open CFJs.”

Prince Anudril: Other CfJs that were open at the time of this one conflict with it big-time.

Okay then.

As a representative of BlogNomic’s older crowd, as well as the unofficially chosen Critic, since Bateleur’s idling. I vote on the principle that I don’t think Agora should just feel free to waltz in and hijack the game.

18-18, by my count. Previous two votes are invalid, as they were not made by artists. Quorum is 22.

I don’t have anything against Agora, or Agora wanting to be a player, or Agora committing shenigans, but MASS PLAYER INVASION is a little tacky.

Rodney: Are you familiar with the current situation? I would say BlogNomic is definitely not out of a crisis yet, so it’s not a good option to simply vote against a CfJ and do nothing else; /something/ has to be done if BlogNomic wants to continue normally, considering the mess that’s been created.

Nay

@zuff: Stop saying that. You know why the crisis hasn’t been resolved? Because we’re dealing with a bigger crisis. I.e., invasion. And I know you’re going to say there aren’t factions, but there clearly are: one is for Agora as emperor, one is against it.

you’re also gong to claim the quickest way to resolve BN’s smaller crisis is to put Agora in charge. If that were true, it would have happened. The quickest way to resolve it is for the pro-Agora faction to idle. Then the discussion about Agora will end, and the original crisis can be resolved.

Oh well. I suppose it would be too much to ask for some reasoning?

Ornithopter: If you really consider emperors tantamount to dictators, then the system has far greater problems than Agora.

If this were purely about a hostile invasion, then the CfJ wouldn’t contain a core ruleset fix, and we wouldn’t have been on IRC all night explaining why the other CfJs fail to fix things.

my vote should be valid now.

18-21, by my count. Quorum is 23.

And with that, I’m out for a few hours. Stupid cliffhanger endings…

I think we should seperate the fix and the invasion. Personally I like the of starting a metadynasty based on the invasion concept to have fun with it.

Amnistar: then certainly vote FOR the relevant CFJ