Monday, November 16, 2020

Call for Judgment: Pins and needles

Reached quorum 4 votes to 1, with 2 DEF. Enacted by Kevan, choosing to process steps sequentially in action order, which hopefully works as expected. Any old illegal edits that nobody noticed are now valid.

Adminned at 18 Nov 2020 16:12:34 UTC

Uphold all edits to the Mosaic page prior to and including this one.

Unpicking the particulars of what is and isn’t legal regarding Raven’s daisychained pinwheels is too much of a headache for me. I don’t think that the status quo particularly advantages or disadvantages anyone so I’m inclined to simply ratify it, just in case.


Clucky: he/him

17-11-2020 00:14:37 UTC

What exactly happened? Did Raven try and complete multiple motifs at once?

Raven1207: he/they

17-11-2020 02:38:17 UTC


Raven1207: he/they

17-11-2020 02:38:47 UTC

Because I didn’t realize you couldn’t stack them

Clucky: he/him

17-11-2020 03:26:32 UTC


Kevan: he/him

17-11-2020 09:50:10 UTC

Hmm, what order do these edits get Upheld in, given that it’s also applying to all old, illegal edits from earlier in the dynasty (which, when Upheld, will likely make some later legal actions illegal)? Does it make sense to say that they’re all Upheld simultaneously, or is that even worse?

Kevan: he/him

17-11-2020 10:00:32 UTC

Looking at the wiki history I think Raven’s pinwheel patterns from the 15th are 6-11 (created by grinding an orange), 14-7 (created by pinwheel benediction), 13-5 (created by grinding a blue), 14-8 (benediction) and 1-2 (invalid benediction). Is that right, Raven? 1-2 is the only pattern that’s been removed as invalid, which would be correct.

Their actions on the 16th involve taking only a single Turn Action, because they only have one Turn to spend, so only the first created pinwheel is valid. And that’s what Josh reverted to.

I think the Mosaic is valid as it stands.

Josh: Bookie he/they

17-11-2020 12:05:12 UTC

Me too, I just want to remove any doubt.

I think Upholding simultaneously is fine, as any illegal edits were reverted and the reversions are upheld as well, but I think actions being upheld in action order makes most sense.

Kevan: he/him

17-11-2020 18:14:32 UTC

I’d be happy to see doubt removed, but I’m a bit nervous of a CfJ that declares (even briefly) that all illegal actions this dynasty were retroactively valid. Are we 100% confident that none of them will survive, or trigger anything else as they pass through?

It seems okay if they’re done in action order: if there’s an illegal “Kevan gains 100 points” followed by a “Kevan loses 100 points” reversion, then the gain is Upheld, causing the reversion to be automatically thrown out (it is “attempted as if the Upheld action had been successful”, which makes it an invalid revert), and then the reversion is Upheld, bringing it back in.

I’m not sure what happens if we try to Upheld all these actions simultaneously: how do you square two simultaneous upholdings of “Kevan gains 100 points and the next edit is invalid” and “Kevan loses 100 points”? That looks like I’d end up keeping the 100 points, to me.

Either way, we’re certainly in trouble if the enacting admin chooses to enact this in reverse (or perverse) order. And there’s a real danger that if any of the past illegal Mosaics are full or otherwise lacking White Tiles, any of the non-simultaneous enactments of this CfJ will trigger endgame. (This early version of the Mosaic has no White Tiles, for example, but I’m not sure how it would shake out if we Upheld it. There may be other edits in the history where someone has broken and then fixed the Mosaic template.)

Raven1207: he/they

18-11-2020 02:55:36 UTC

imperial until it is decided if daisychaining is ok or not

Kevan: he/him

18-11-2020 09:39:44 UTC

[Raven1207] The Whirling Silently in Space proposal isn’t retroactive, it wouldn’t make your past moves valid.

against per above concerns about simultaneous enactment and ending the dynasty.

robotabc773: he/him

18-11-2020 15:55:55 UTC