Wednesday, May 01, 2024

Proposal: The Pigeon Loft [Building Blocks]

Withdrawn. Failed by Kevan.

Adminned at 03 May 2024 10:15:17 UTC

Copy the Building Block “Virtual Actions” into the Building Blocks section of the ruleset.

In “The Plan”, replace “A Thief may change their plan at any time by privately messaging the City what they want their new plan to be” with:-

A Thief may change their Plan as a virtual action.

In “Attitudes”, replace “As a Weekly Action, a Thief may change their Attitude by privately communicating to the City their new Attitude.” with:-

A Thief may change their Attitude as a virtual action.

In “The Haul”, replace “If the Haul is empty” with:-

If the Haul is empty and no virtual actions are pending

In “Distribution”, replace “If a quorum of Thieves have posted equivalent Propositions on a Haul post” with:-

If a quorum of Thieves have posted equivalent Propositions on a Haul post and no virtual actions are pending

Seems like we may as well use the virtual actions boilerplate here, so that we’ve got clear outcomes for invalid requests, retractions and other outlier situations.

Comments

Josh: he/they

01-05-2024 10:17:37 UTC

I don’t love the virtual actions language so will probably vote against as written.

Kevan: he/him

01-05-2024 10:32:46 UTC

It could use more work and maybe a change of name, but it seems worth clarifying some of the points it makes about the Emperor reacting to invalid requests (which I would currently silently ignore under a Guarded Imperial Style) and whether someone asking for a weekly Attitude change and then immediately saying “no, wait, ignore that” should be honoured or stuck with it. We could reinvent the wheel dynastically, but there is a Building Block for it right there.

Josh: he/they

01-05-2024 10:57:33 UTC

I think its problems are deeper than that! Just for example: the Virtual Actions text states that a virtual action is an action that the city takes on behalf of a thief. Okay; so it’s an action that the city takes. That means that a weekly virtual action - like attitude changes, above - can only be performed once per week *per city*, rather than *per thief*. That’s not great!

The whole architecture of Virtual Actions shifting the act from thief to city is weird, counterintuitive, and I’d wager there are bigger problems still yet to be found in the text.

Kevan: he/him

01-05-2024 11:21:57 UTC

This Building Block has been used in a couple of dynasties, although I didn’t play them - I assumed that meant it was functional, but fair enough if it’s not quite there. Maybe we should flag up Blocks which we know need more work, so that Emperors don’t assume that they can just use them as intended.

I’ll drop the “weekly” from “A Thief may change their Attitude as a virtual weekly action” for now (I was only keeping it out of the principle of minimal change, the action seems fine performed at will) and I’ll see where this falls.

Desertfrog:

01-05-2024 11:34:55 UTC

Would it be enough to add something like “the virtual action is still considered to be performed by the Thief for the purposes of other rules” to the building block?

Josh: he/they

01-05-2024 11:42:38 UTC

Depends what the object of the exercise is. Does it solve the one proximate problem I’ve raised here? Sure, probably. Does it resolve the fundamental uncertainty of a rule that essentially upends the way that we intuitively expect actions to work? Who knows - the nature of sleeping demons is that you don’t know how many there are until they wake up. Does it resolve the inherent lack of clarity and ambiuity implicit to having the action and the rule required to understand how to parse the action half a ruleset away from each other? No.

JonathanDark: he/him

01-05-2024 14:17:40 UTC

I’m not afraid of sleeping demons. If there’s a part of the ruleset that’s unstable, let’s expose it and see how it breaks. Burying it doesn’t seem like the most head-on way to deal with the problem.

Clucky: he/him

01-05-2024 15:11:32 UTC

Virtual action wording gives Kevan leeway in the order stuff is resolved—he can post a new haul before resolving pending actions. So I think I’m with JOsh here.

Kevan: he/him

01-05-2024 15:16:04 UTC

[Clucky] This proposal adds “and no virtual actions are pending” to the two resolution actions.

Josh: he/they

01-05-2024 17:36:28 UTC

against

4st:

01-05-2024 18:41:44 UTC

for Kevan runs this place, I support the city! I’m not a no-good thief like the likes of y’all!

<.< >.>

Nad: he/him

02-05-2024 11:12:16 UTC

imperial

JonathanDark: he/him

02-05-2024 13:37:38 UTC

for

Kevan: he/him

03-05-2024 10:14:35 UTC

against Withdrawn because the obsolete keywords on the Building Blocks page will make this action unperformable.