Thursday, October 20, 2011

Call for Judgment: CFJ: Attn: CotC

failed by CfJ “http://blognomic.com/archive/compromise_mark_4_again” -Bucky
unfailed by coppro - the enactment was illegal

FAILED BY Chronos Phaenon for reaching a quorum of votes against. Vote counting: for 18 against 23
unadminned by coppro - lass’ vote was not valid.

Failed by Ienpw III with 26 against votes and 17 for.
Note: only the first 100 comments are displayed. Any admin can verify the vote count.

Adminned at 21 Oct 2011 11:28:43 UTC

A large number of people have recently joined/unidled in BlogNomic, whose opinions have not been recently respected. The ruleset and gamestate are uncertain due to rules issues and attempted scams, and many people think that the dynasty is flagging and unlikely to recover. Finally, Agora’s ruleset requires attempts to be made to cause it to become a player in BlogNomic. All this requires urgent attention. Therefore:

  • Repeal all dynastic rules.
  • Fail all other open CFJs.
  • Change the core rules and glossary to the version shown at http://blognomic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ruleset&oldid=14227, except that
    A Proposal, Call for Judgment, or Declaration of Victory cannot simultaneously be any other type of official post unless otherwise specified by dynastic rules.
    is replaced with
    Artists may not create a post, nor edit a post, such that that post is in more than one of the following categories: {Call for Judgment, Proposal, Declaration of Victory, Ascension Address}.
  • Change the name of the Artist currently known on BlogNomic as “Agora Nomic” to “Tiger”, to avoid confusion.
  • Replace “Artist” with “Player” and “Critic” with “Speaker” in every rule.
  • Create a new dynastic rule, “Foreign Relations”:
    In addition to humans, nomics can also be Players, although a nomic cannot become an Players except via the enactment of a rule declaring them as one, and providing them with a method to act. Agora, the nomic that is most commonly referred to as Agora on the mailing lists described at http://agoranomic.org, is a Player. It cannot be idled due to inactivity. If a proposal passes in Agora that specifies that Agora posts a blog post or comment to BlogNomic, or if Agora posts a blog post or comment to BlogNomic via any other mechanism specified by Agora’s ruleset, then any Player who is also a player of Agora may make such blog posts or comments to BlogNomic, marking them as posted by Agora, and they will count as being posted by Agora not by that player. (Players may not claim blog posts or comments to have been posted by Agora if they have not been.)
  • Begin a new dynasty with Agora as the Speaker.

Next up after this: The Last Dynasty of Michael Walsh.

Comments

zuff:

10-20-2011 22:04:29 UTC

for arrow

Pavitra:

10-20-2011 22:08:52 UTC

for  arrow

southpointingchariot:

10-20-2011 22:09:47 UTC

against

Soviet Brendon:

10-20-2011 22:12:32 UTC

against No

Kevan: HE/HIM

10-20-2011 22:15:23 UTC

*sigh*

against

omd:

10-20-2011 22:20:41 UTC

for I wanted to write the CfJ. ;(

eelpout:

10-20-2011 22:25:25 UTC

for not the best introduction for me here…

Klisz:

10-20-2011 22:28:56 UTC

for

Brownie:

10-20-2011 22:46:55 UTC

against

ais523:

10-20-2011 22:53:22 UTC

for Sorry, BlogNomic players who oppose this. But this dynasty looks doomed to failure (I was the only person who got maximum acclaim in the first two weeks, which means that everyone else wasn’t really trying to win, and the entire game seemed likely to peter out before there was a win condition), and a new one could be potentially interesting, and I’d try to make it a success.

Bucky:

10-20-2011 23:12:01 UTC

against per Kevan.

Amnistar:

10-20-2011 23:30:34 UTC

Folowing Kevin’s lead.  against

Murphy:

10-20-2011 23:47:25 UTC

for

Who’s Michael Walsh?

Seventy-Fifth Trombone:

10-20-2011 23:49:57 UTC

against  against  against

Ienpw III:

10-21-2011 00:01:58 UTC

against  against

Shadowclaw:

10-21-2011 00:13:23 UTC

against following Kevan’s lead.

Tavros:

10-21-2011 00:30:58 UTC

for

Note that I have (I’ve been told) broken a rule by changing my screen name. I figure that two wrongs don’t make a right, aye?

dupdog:

10-21-2011 00:31:01 UTC

for

Klisz:

10-21-2011 00:36:20 UTC

What was your name before, Tavros?

Libby:

10-21-2011 00:45:40 UTC

against
This is suspiciously reminiscent of semi-recent events in Austria.

Libby:

10-21-2011 00:46:25 UTC

against
This is suspiciously reminiscent of semi-recent events in Austria.

Ornithopter:

10-21-2011 00:51:02 UTC

against

digibomber:

10-21-2011 01:08:05 UTC

against

monqy:

10-21-2011 01:19:34 UTC

for

pikhq:

10-21-2011 02:30:32 UTC

for

Roujo:

10-21-2011 02:44:13 UTC

for =P

lazerchik:

10-21-2011 02:53:16 UTC

against

Brendan: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 02:55:40 UTC

against

scshunt:

10-21-2011 03:03:57 UTC

Roujo: your vote doesn’t count; you are idle.

Sgeo:

10-21-2011 03:28:59 UTC

for

Yally:

10-21-2011 03:46:33 UTC

for

Blorg:

10-21-2011 04:02:32 UTC

against

Roujo:

10-21-2011 04:15:02 UTC

Well I had asked to be unidled here (http://blognomic.com/archive/reactivation/), but apparently that post was missed by all admins. Now that Darth_Cliche unidled me for real, I vote for. =)

Amnistar:

10-21-2011 04:23:24 UTC

15 -  for
15 -  against

Close match…

Roujo:

10-21-2011 04:39:50 UTC

It is. This is crazy exciting.

*grabs popcorn*

Klisz:

10-21-2011 04:50:37 UTC

Hmm. BNScript gives 15-13, not 15-15.

Roujo:

10-21-2011 04:51:49 UTC

True. Time to count. =P

Roujo:

10-21-2011 05:56:29 UTC

From what I’m counting, this CfJ is currently at 15 FOR - 16 AGAINST. Feel free to recount, though. =)

flurie:

10-21-2011 06:00:56 UTC

against

Roujo:

10-21-2011 06:01:26 UTC

I have been informed that since Brownie isn’t a player, this post is currently standing at 15-15. My apologies. =)

Roujo:

10-21-2011 06:02:18 UTC

Correction. With flurie, that’s 15-16. I’m going to stop counting now. =P

Klisz:

10-21-2011 06:04:28 UTC

against CoV. Long live BlogCalvinball.

Roujo:

10-21-2011 06:05:20 UTC

14-15. -_-’

I have to stop counting when I’m too sleepy.

Klisz:

10-21-2011 06:06:16 UTC

for CoV, let’s just end this already.

Ornithopter:

10-21-2011 06:35:02 UTC

Here’s my current count:

Quorum is 20.

FOR (15)
ais523
comex
coppro
Darth Cliche
dupdog
eelpout
monqy
Murphy
Pavitra
pikhq
Roujo
Sgeo
Tavros Nitram
Yally
zuff

AGAINST (15)
Amnistar
Blorg
Brendan
Bucky
digibomber
flurie
Ienpw III
Kevan
lazerchik
Libby
Ornithopter
Seventy-Fifth Trombone
Shadowclaw
southpointingchariot
Soviet Brendon

ABSTAIN (8)
Agora Nomic
bateleur
CWW
Darknight
Doctor29
Prince Anduril
Winner
Wooble

scshunt:

10-21-2011 06:36:19 UTC

lazerchik’s vote was invalid as it happened several minutes before registration

scshunt:

10-21-2011 06:36:46 UTC

(link to http://blognomic.com/archive/okay_look/ for more context as to why I believe this should be voted for)

Clucky: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 06:39:11 UTC

against

Seriously guys. The fact that Seventy-Fifth Trombone, Kevan, Bucky, Amnistar, Brendan, and Ienpw III are all against this should say *a lot*.

scshunt:

10-21-2011 06:40:34 UTC

I wouldn’t expect any different, but I’d appreciate if you’d would evaluate it on the merits rather than appeal to authority.

zuff:

10-21-2011 06:40:43 UTC

Clucky: Can you please read coppro’s comment on the matter? It is easy to jump to conclusions, but the state of the game when this CfJ was first posted is *very* different to where we are at now.

Ornithopter:

10-21-2011 06:50:13 UTC

Well spotted, coppro.

Clucky’s vote brings it to 15-15, with 9 no-votes. Quorum is still 20.

Clucky: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 06:53:14 UTC

Fine, if you want.

> This was not originally intended to be a massive Agora vs. BlogNomic extravaganza. BlogNomic had gotten itself into a constitutional crisis (although apparently some players still disagree on this point, the fact is that it spent several weeks without gameplay). A large part of the thought was that it would be fun and it would solve BlogNomic’s problem at the same time.

Did Blognomic and its members ask Agora to solve its problems? Nomics interfering with other nomics honestly sounds like a terrible idea. Someone who dislikes Agora for whatever reason should be able to enjoy Blognomic and vice verse.

> I’m not upset—-and I don’t think anyone else is either—-that the ‘invasion’ was resisted. It’s part of the fun. You don’t go playing capture the flag expecting the other side to let you waltz and grab the flag. The hope, however, was that everyone would shake hands afterwards and get on to playing BlogNomic no matter what happened.

I’m not upset that you my punching you in the balls was resisted. It’s part of the fun.

> I state with bias that I believe that there are other reasons this should be adopted. If it is, it will encourage Agorans to play BlogNomic and BlogNomickers to play Agora. This is only good for both games. Cross-pollination would benefit both Nomics immensely, as any seasoned Nomicker knows that more players is only a good thing.

No, it isn’t. Having some cross-pollination is good. But you know what happens when you screw your sister? You’ll probably wind up with a retard. Its okay for nomics to have some common members, but too many and they’ll wind up being redundant and self similar.

> A few people think of this as being a terrible travesty of giving Agora an undeserved victory. I disagree. For starters, the CFJ doesn’t actually award Agora a win. But more than that, I don’t think it’s worth putting too much stock in dynasties. We’ve had some dynasties in the past that I think were much less-deserved than this, especially ones started by enactment rather than victory. We’ve also had people put in charge of dynasties simply because they were there and the emperor wasn’t. In the end, let’s try not to put too much stock into dynasties. They’re fun and all, but it doesn’t really matter.

Its not giving Agora the victory that we’re pissed about, its putting Agora in charge of our nomic. If you wanna say “Agora wins, Canada won Agora so he’ll be the new emperor” go ahead. Just don’t try and control our nomic through your nomic - thats what we’re rebelling against.

> One last note: Agora is a slow game. I don’t expect that an Agoran dynasty will vary much from a meta, and it will probably be much more interesting.

If Agora is slow won’t that just make blognomic slow?

omd:

10-21-2011 06:59:00 UTC

> Its okay for nomics to have some common members, but too many and they’ll wind up being redundant and self similar.

This is likely to be a very temporary thing, and they are very different games.

> Its not giving Agora the victory that we’re pissed about, its putting Agora in charge of our nomic. If you wanna say “Agora wins, Canada won Agora so he’ll be the new emperor” go ahead. Just don’t try and control our nomic through your nomic - thats what we’re rebelling against.

It’s hardly control, just a rather slow veto, and a theme.

> If Agora is slow won’t that just make blognomic slow?

No.  It just means that most of the time there won’t be any vetos.

scshunt:

10-21-2011 07:00:45 UTC

> Did Blognomic and its members ask Agora to solve its problems? Nomics interfering with other nomics honestly sounds like a terrible idea. Someone who dislikes Agora for whatever reason should be able to enjoy Blognomic and vice verse.

This was an opportune moment because it was less rude. Invading at an active moment in a more coordinated fashion (trying to get a quorum very quickly to pass a CFJ) would have been more likely to succeed, but would have inflicted actual damage to BlogNomic. Like any core rules scam (and this is a scam!), it should be executed with careful timing since it can be used for good and not evil.

> No, it isn’t. Having some cross-pollination is good. But you know what happens when you screw your sister? You’ll probably wind up with a retard. Its okay for nomics to have some common members, but too many and they’ll wind up being redundant and self similar.

No, because the culture is different enough. Agora is slow-moving and not dynastic. BlogNomic is dynamic and dynastic.

> Its not giving Agora the victory that we’re pissed about, its putting Agora in charge of our nomic. If you wanna say “Agora wins, Canada won Agora so he’ll be the new emperor” go ahead. Just don’t try and control our nomic through your nomic - thats what we’re rebelling against.

As I said, it’s more symbolic than anything. And there’s no reason BlogNomic couldn’t, in turn, be Speaker of Agora at some point. Heck, a proposal to that effect would have a reasonable shot at passing right now. Wouldn’t it be fun if both nomics were the figureheads in charge of the other?

>If Agora is slow won’t that just make blognomic slow?

No more than any meta.

Clucky: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 07:02:24 UTC

It still sets a bad president. As does sending all your goons here to sign up you could pass it through. Its blatant sock puppetry and is probably the worst nomic sin someone could commit.

Bucky:

10-21-2011 07:02:57 UTC

The rule described here may not work as expected because it does not say that Agora refers to a player’s name.  It does say that it refers to the name of a nomic, but that is not sufficient to satisfy rule 3.3.5 if Agora is also a player.

zuff:

10-21-2011 07:04:53 UTC

Clucky: I’ll let coppro and comex respond more fully, but I’ll note that BN hasn’t exactly refrained from recruiting.

Josh: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 07:06:45 UTC

against

scshunt:

10-21-2011 07:07:06 UTC

Sorry, I should clarify that last point for people not familiar with Agora. Agora is slow because, assuming everyone does their jobs, proposals can take anywhere from five days to five weeks to get through the system, although both extremes are rare and two or three weeks is the norm. Proposals are distributed in bunches, and often require more than a majority for adoption. Large changes are discussed before even being proposed, much less voted on.

By contrast, BlogNomic enacts proposals in two days or less. It’s quickly-moving and a dynasty can be over in the time it can take Agora to enact a proposal.

Agora presently has no means to interact with BlogNomic. So at the very least, BlogNomic would be free from Agoran control until the first batch of proposals made it through.

Thus, a pseudo-metadynasty with Agora in charge would not significantly affect BlogNomic gameplay.

zuff:

10-21-2011 07:07:58 UTC

Josh: do you have a response to the many paragraphs written so far about the game in its current state? Obviously you have a right to your vote, but I really think the other perspective should be gained here.

scshunt:

10-21-2011 07:08:26 UTC

Bucky: it does explicitly refer to it as a player since it says “Agora ... is a player”

Clucky: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 07:11:17 UTC

Zuff. There is a huge difference between talking to old players and getting them to unidle and setting up new accounts. Duh.

Bucky:

10-21-2011 07:13:16 UTC

it does not explicitly refer to “Agora” as a player’s name though.

scshunt:

10-21-2011 07:13:28 UTC

Clucky: both sides did both of those things.

Josh: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 07:14:59 UTC

@Zuff: I don’t want to play Agora. If BlogNomic becomes Agora then I will stop playing it. My vote is pragmatic, not rules-based.

pikhq:

10-21-2011 07:16:08 UTC

@Josh: It’s not *becoming* Agora. It’s simply having Agora as a single, really slow-acting player.

Ornithopter:

10-21-2011 07:16:20 UTC

Given the choice between recruiting and surrender, I have no issue with recruiting.

Josh: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 07:17:26 UTC

@pikhq And emperor. And, on current form, about half of the active player list, meaning a blocking vote for purposes of quorum.

zuff:

10-21-2011 07:18:19 UTC

@Ornithopter: This isn’t about factions any more. Seriously. There is no more shadowy conspiracy; Agora doesn’t give half a damn about invasion. This is about cleaning up the mess BlogNomic is in—sure, that we have partly created.

But it is about cleaning up the mess. Please, read coppro’s comment. There is a reasonable course of action here devoid of nomic jingoism.

scshunt:

10-21-2011 07:21:37 UTC

I definitely don’t want to turn BlogNomic into Agora.

Agora’s a rather boring lot.

Qwazukee:

10-21-2011 09:30:25 UTC

against Well it’s fun to have a reunion, at least.

Blognomic can fix itself, it always has before. Agora’s got its own nomic.

zuff:

10-21-2011 09:40:50 UTC

Qwazukee: It’s getting rather old pointing people to coppro’s comment—but this _is_ fixing BlogNomic. All the other options introduce excess delays and uncertainty for no reason; this is the best option we have right now to get the game back on track.

omd:

10-21-2011 09:45:16 UTC

I think this sets a record for how quickly a scam has gotten people burnt out.  The hotter, the shorter, I suppose…

Tiger:

10-21-2011 09:54:58 UTC

for

Kevan: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 10:04:50 UTC

[zuff] This CfJ was twelve hours and a couple of votes away from passing when Agora decided to come and “fix” BlogNomic for us. It will likely pass in three hours, and the problem we were having of not being able to make proposals will be fixed.

Purplebeard:

10-21-2011 10:26:07 UTC

This invasion has been entertaining to watch from the sidelines, and is obviously legal according to the rules, but I don’t really see the point (apart from the amusement derived from this mess, of course, which I suppose could be reason enough). Blognomic is perfectly capable of solving the problem on its own, and was close to doing so when this happened.

Also, even if this passes, I imagine (and hope) that the “Foreign Relations” rule will be summarily repealed as soon as agora loses its majority.

omd:

10-21-2011 10:26:50 UTC

That is a point of disagreement, of course.  I think zuff is the only one who would consider this “the best way to fix the art problem” rather than “a nice direction to take when coming out of the crisis”.

zuff:

10-21-2011 10:29:07 UTC

Kevan: This is no longer about Agora fixing BlogNomic and people’s insistence that it is based on perceived factions is getting pretty old; yes, undoubtedly this was a scam and an invasion to start with, and certainly it is still the product of a scam; but it’s also quite objectively the quickest way to fix BN, independent of its origins.

Anyway, that CfJ still allows ais’ original scam, which puts us back at square one, as ais is in favour of enacting an Agoran dynasty. So I don’t see how that’s an alternative option.

omd:

10-21-2011 10:30:21 UTC

Purplebeard, I would consider that a true shame - I hope that most of those who disagree with the invasion would still consider it a valid scam win if it passes, and would be willing to tolerate Agorans for the length of a dynasty.  “Undo that thing that just passed” is not an interesting counter-scam.

But I know nothing and represent no one.  I’m just an old scamster…

Kevan: HE/HIM

10-21-2011 10:53:33 UTC

[zuff] I don’t believe that it reenables Ais’s scam (and he apparently doesn’t either). And a fix proposal without the “also repeal all your rules and have an Agora dynasty” clause would be objectively quicker, because people who didn’t want to end the dynasty would be able to vote for it.

Wooble:

10-21-2011 11:08:16 UTC

for

omd:

10-21-2011 11:25:20 UTC

Good night.  Things have been pretty quiet over the last six hours, but by the time I wake up, activity will be on an upswing, the clock will be rounding out the first day, and this will probably be over.  This dynasty can only start one way, and the invasion is unlikely to be repeated, so it is time to commit my one and only chance to fate.

CWW:

10-21-2011 11:27:24 UTC

for

Prince Anduril:

10-21-2011 12:10:30 UTC

against

Just for: “Fail all other open CFJs.”

zuff:

10-21-2011 12:25:21 UTC

Prince Anudril: Other CfJs that were open at the time of this one conflict with it big-time.

Prince Anduril:

10-21-2011 13:15:20 UTC

Okay then.

As a representative of BlogNomic’s older crowd, as well as the unofficially chosen Critic, since Bateleur’s idling. I vote against on the principle that I don’t think Agora should just feel free to waltz in and hijack the game.

lass:

10-21-2011 14:01:13 UTC

against

rebelyellow:

10-21-2011 14:03:51 UTC

against

Ornithopter:

10-21-2011 14:07:10 UTC

18-18, by my count. Previous two votes are invalid, as they were not made by artists. Quorum is 22.

Rodney:

10-21-2011 14:09:58 UTC

against I don’t have anything against Agora, or Agora wanting to be a player, or Agora committing shenigans, but MASS PLAYER INVASION is a little tacky.

zuff:

10-21-2011 14:11:06 UTC

Rodney: Are you familiar with the current situation? I would say BlogNomic is definitely not out of a crisis yet, so it’s not a good option to simply vote against a CfJ and do nothing else; /something/ has to be done if BlogNomic wants to continue normally, considering the mess that’s been created.

ChronosPhaenon:

10-21-2011 14:14:44 UTC

Nay
against

Ornithopter:

10-21-2011 14:15:57 UTC

@zuff: Stop saying that. You know why the crisis hasn’t been resolved? Because we’re dealing with a bigger crisis. I.e., invasion. And I know you’re going to say there aren’t factions, but there clearly are: one is for Agora as emperor, one is against it.

you’re also gong to claim the quickest way to resolve BN’s smaller crisis is to put Agora in charge. If that were true, it would have happened. The quickest way to resolve it is for the pro-Agora faction to idle. Then the discussion about Agora will end, and the original crisis can be resolved.

zuff:

10-21-2011 14:16:16 UTC

Oh well. I suppose it would be too much to ask for some reasoning?

zuff:

10-21-2011 14:18:07 UTC

Ornithopter: If you really consider emperors tantamount to dictators, then the system has far greater problems than Agora.

If this were purely about a hostile invasion, then the CfJ wouldn’t contain a core ruleset fix, and we wouldn’t have been on IRC all night explaining why the other CfJs fail to fix things.

lazerchik:

10-21-2011 14:19:12 UTC

against

my vote should be valid now.

Ornithopter:

10-21-2011 14:29:30 UTC

18-21, by my count. Quorum is 23.

And with that, I’m out for a few hours. Stupid cliffhanger endings…

rebelyellow:

10-21-2011 14:33:24 UTC

against

Amnistar:

10-21-2011 14:47:21 UTC

I think we should seperate the fix and the invasion. Personally I like the of starting a metadynasty based on the invasion concept to have fun with it.

scshunt:

10-21-2011 14:51:08 UTC

Amnistar: then certainly vote FOR the relevant CFJ

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